Is The Occupy Wall Street Movement an Answer to The Tea Party Movement?

[dbacks fan]

Don't know if this has been posted before, but a lot of this mess goes back to Clinton repealing the Glass Stegall act of 1933 signed into law by FDR after the depression.

"Commercial banks played a crucial role as buyers and sellers of mortgage-backed securities, credit-default swaps and other explosive financial derivatives," Demos, a nonpartisan public policy and research organization, wrote in a report discussing the problems it said were caused by the repeal of Glass-Steagall.

"Without the watering down and ultimate repeal of Glass-Steagall, the banks would have been barred from most of these activities," Demos said. "The market and appetite for derivatives would then have been far smaller, and Washington might not have felt a need to rescue the institutional victims."

But 10 years ago, the revocation of Glass-Steagall drew few critics. In the House, 155 Democrats and 207 Republicans voted for the measure, while 51 Democrats, 5 Republicans and 1 independent opposed it. Fifteen members did not vote.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/11/12/10-years-later-looking-at-repeal-of-glass-steagall/

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aQfRyxBZs5uc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act

[Red Arrow]

http://news.yahoo.com/protesters-rally-worldwide-against-greedy-rich-040550468.html

This seems to be transcending politics.

Galvanized by the Occupy Wall Street movement, the protests began in New Zealand, rippled east to Europe and were expected to return to their starting point in New York.

New Zealand is just a tiny bit west 180 degrees longitude.
Using a string on a globe, I would have chosen to say rippled west rather than east.  It's a shorter path to go northwest if you want to ripple through Japan and eastern parts of western Europe before returning to NYC.

[Breadburner]

Just awful...The Horror....Dont let women or children watch.....!!!!!!
OWS Protester run down by NYPD Motorcycle....

[AquaMan]

The writing on internet news sites is atrocious. Riddled with poor grammar, poor knowledge and misleading headlines. But it costs less to employ these net savvy youngsters and few people ever hold them accountable.

That said, this thread suffers the same criticisms. Hard to reply much when most of the remarks are dogma driven, net driven and based on false assumptions. You just can't communicate with posters whose politics drive them, not history, facts and logic.

Red, do you remember another hotbed period of time when demonstrations, both peaceful and physical were not unusual? When common people with little education but lots of energy and awareness, actually changed the world? And more importantly, do you remember the remarks made about those people? I do. It was the period from 1964 to 1972. Encompassing civil rights, economic riots masquerading as civil rights, sexual revolution, prison riots, Native American rights, musical revolution, religious upheaval, war demonstrations etc. Everything seemed to be on the table.

Why I am shocked by this thread is that the remarks have resurfaced. Same ignorance, same blinders, same dogma. It is just rather depressing to see that our response to change, evidenced in demonstrations, doesn't seem to change much in our country.

Here is an amalgamation of some of these responses to OCW-

"Our Country, Love it or Leave it" (now replaced with Capitalism...love it or leave it... or Wealth Disparity...Get over it...)

"These people are basically unemployed, selfish, lazy, ignorant, sexually promiscuous, dirty, unfocused, racist, anti-semite, socialists who want a welfare society that robs from the rich and gives to them." I cannot tell you how much I heard those kinds of comments related to civil-rights demonstrators and about the DNC protests in the late sixties.

"They totally misunderstand: economics, the failure of all systems but our own, the superiority of job creators vs labor providers, that they too can rise from obscurity and poverty by simply following the rules and conforming, that wealth is to be idolized as the true route to happiness, that this entire fiscal mess should be laid at the feet of Obama, Democrats and Liberals in general, and that they are being led by crazies and extremists whose goals are the destruction of capitalism and the glory of mediocrity. " Cain leads this group doesn't he?

My favorite from the period that I remember was from a CBS man on the street interview, "I've noticed that most of these McGovern supporters seem to be longhairs wearing sandals and riding bikes. That's just not America" Today, different words but same meaning.

So, what I glean from these current demonstrations is this. Yes, they are lead by crazies whether TP'ers or OCW. Yes, they are hazy on details, the product of long fat times, and different than suburban conservative intellectuals in most every way. But, no, they aren't an anomaly or an aberration. There are undercurrents that most of you have missed that seem to correlate with the 64-72 period. It is not a politically driven, well financed and directed movement. It is a movement that is exposing the huge number of people that recognize the system has flaws and know they are powerless to solve them. Like a toddler, they don't know why they are hungry, they simply wail because of the pain.

There is a wide schism between classes of people that have all needs met and those who can't meet basic needs (as provided them in the past few decades). The people at the bottom understand wealth and its lifestyle yet the wealthy and powerful seem unaware of the  plight the former middle class faces and the schism is huge. In this, they are way ahead of this forum's detractors. Curiously, the physical and economic growth of the middle class in 64-72 was concurrent with the highest taxes on the top tier incomes. Now, the middle class is shrinking economically and physically while the top tiers pay less in taxes than ever.

Add it all up and I suspect that, given enough time, there will not only be more three letter movements, but the emotions they exhibit will be reflected in change just as they were following the 64-72 period.

[dbacks fan]

"Independent witnesses said he purposely put his legs under the scooter and then claimed falsely he was trapped," Mr. Browne said.

The Daily News quoted one of its photographers, Joseph Marino, as saying that the scooter "definitely hit" Mr. Douglas but did not run him over. "I saw him sticking his legs under the bike to make it appear he was run over," Mr. Marino said. Mr. Browne said he was also told by The Associated Press that one of its photographers witnessed Mr. Douglas deliberately putting his feet under the scooter.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/video-of-protesters-leg-beneath-scooter-spurs-conflicting-accounts/?scp=2&sq=Protestor%20run%20over%20by%20police&st=cse

[guido911]

What?

[Ed W]

Earlier today, I listened to Dan Carlin's "Hard Core History" podcast titled Radical Thoughts. It's an overview of the reaction to radicalism with emphasis on the two Red scares.  The first of these occurred just after WW1 and set the stage for the second Red scare after WW2. The interesting part is to compare the language used then, and think about that language in present day context.  It's perilous to try to develop analogies between those eras and now, but it's always instructive to learn more about history. 

One thread running through Carlin's narrative is that governments have tried and failed to stamp out ideas they found disagreeable.  He began that with a discussion of the French Revolution and the effect it had on the following century.  Our own government passed laws to establish internment camps for known leftists during the height of the post WW2 Red scare, and the order to round up those suspected of harboring leftist sentiments was nearly given during the Cuban missile crisis.  Carlin did not provide attribution for this.  At the time, FBI Director Hoover held the opinion that liberals and trade unions were merely Communists under another banner, and this is no different from the tarring of the Occupy Wall Street protests due to the acts of individuals.

Radical Thoughts is about 2 hours long, but it's worth the time.  Carlin is honest in saying that it's difficult to view recent history through that historian's prism, because not enough time has passed to provide a more objective view.  If you have any interest in history, I recommend his podcasts.  The series on Hannibal and Rome are especially fascinating.

[guido911]

Earlier today, I listened to Dan Carlin's "Hard Core History" podcast titled Radical Thoughts. It's an overview of the reaction to radicalism with emphasis on the two Red scares.  The first of these occurred just after WW1 and set the stage for the second Red scare after WW2. The interesting part is to compare the language used then, and think about that language in present day context.  It's perilous to try to develop analogies between those eras and now, but it's always instructive to learn more about history. 

One thread running through Carlin's narrative is that governments have tried and failed to stamp out ideas they found disagreeable.  He began that with a discussion of the French Revolution and the effect it had on the following century.  Our own government passed laws to establish internment camps for known leftists during the height of the post WW2 Red scare, and the order to round up those suspected of harboring leftist sentiments was nearly given during the Cuban missile crisis.  Carlin did not provide attribution for this.  At the time, FBI Director Hoover held the opinion that liberals and trade unions were merely Communists under another banner, and this is no different from the tarring of the Occupy Wall Street protests due to the acts of individuals.

Radical Thoughts is about 2 hours long, but it's worth the time.  Carlin is honest in saying that it's difficult to view recent history through that historian's prism, because not enough time has passed to provide a more objective view.  If you have any interest in history, I recommend his podcasts.  The series on Hannibal and Rome are especially fascinating.

I'll give it a listen. In college, my undergrad minor was history with the focus on the French Revolutionary period and the U.S. Civil War. I like to hear others comment on these periods since they interest me. And yes, trade unions and liberals are Communists. I keed. I keed.

[Conan71]

Just awful...The Horror....Dont let women or children watch.....!!!!!!
OWS Protester run down by NYPD Motorcycle....

Imagine how hard that pu##y would have cried if he flipped a midget at Belleville

Those of you who aren't racing geeks don't have a chance of getting that one...Breadburner and I have a common history on that one.  BBQ clutch anyone?

[guido911]

Conan, you talking about my hometown?

[Conan71]

Conan, you talking about my hometown?

LOL.  Never thought about that.  Belleclair wouldn't be near as bad as Belleville, Ks. as the reference I was making.  I often forget about the two Bellevilles.

[Red Arrow]

The writing on internet news sites is atrocious. Riddled with poor grammar, poor knowledge and misleading headlines. But it costs less to employ these net savvy youngsters and few people ever hold them accountable.

Even on this forum, the spelling is frequently horrible.  As much as Wevsus and I disagree, at least I know what he is saying and he can spell.  There, their, they're and many other seem to be beyond the capabilities of too many.  It reminds me of the joke about spell checker where if the paragraph is read aloud, it makes sense.  If you read the words actually written, oh well.

Red, do you remember another hotbed period of time when demonstrations, both peaceful and physical were not unusual? When common people with little education but lots of energy and awareness, actually changed the world? And more importantly, do you remember the remarks made about those people? I do. It was the period from 1964 to 1972.

It would be difficult to not remember, especially since I wasn't (still not) wasted all the time.   I agreed with some, not with others.  MLK made sense to me.  Watts residents burning their homes (rented or not) and then complaining they had no place to live was beyond my sympathy.  There were definitely changes that were needed.  I didn't always agree with the methods.

Why I am shocked by this thread is that the remarks have resurfaced. Same ignorance, same blinders, same dogma. It is just rather depressing to see that our response to change, evidenced in demonstrations, doesn't seem to change much in our country.

"These people are basically unemployed, selfish, lazy, ignorant, sexually promiscuous, dirty, unfocused, racist, anti-semite, socialists who want a welfare society that robs from the rich and gives to them." I cannot tell you how much I heard those kinds of comments related to civil-rights demonstrators and about the DNC protests in the late sixties.

One of the results of the 60s is the entitlement society:  I exist, therefore I deserve to succeed.  I won't even apologize for saying I don't believe that.  Everyone deserves a chance to succeed but everyone does not deserve guaranteed success regardless of effort.  Yes, luck helps.  Luck can be influenced by attitude and effort.  My grandfather succeeded as a Polish immigrant when being Polish was not a good thing to be.  He saw the value of an education (and learning English) for both himself, my grandmother, and his sons.  True, you couldn't tell he was Polish across the street.  As soon as he spoke, you knew he was not born in Kansas.   I saw the entrance and academic performance standards lowered at the U of Delaware in order to accommodate "minorities".   I saw that as lowering the value of my degree.  Those students needed to go to Junior College and get the credentials to get into a 4 year school.  It only took my brother, who scraped through High School, one summer in the oil patch to realize he needed to become a better student.  He was, and still is, a terrible test taker but he did a few semesters at (then) TJC and eventually got into TU.  He graduated as a Mechanical Engineer.  Why is that path so wrong for minorities that didn't get the proper preparation in High School?  I remember seeing "Colored" signs on water fountains and restrooms on trips from Philadelphia, PA to Florida to visit my grandparents.  My parents said that was wrong and needed to be changed.  I didn't know many black people growing up but the ones I did were fine people.  The local pharmacist, a few kids in high school, some people at dog training school.  I also read weekly about the (usually) black kids in Philly killing someone gang style.  I don't know if it was drugs or turf related.  Where I am going is that there were a lot of confusing signals. I believe in civil rights but some of the solutions were probably not the best that could have been  chosen.  I lost a summer job to affirmative action but I survived.  Another poster on TNF occasionally complains about losing his Pell grants but he survived and got his degree.  Hopefully the kids that got my job and those Pell grants succeeded when they otherwise could not have.

"They totally misunderstand: economics, the failure of all systems but our own, the superiority of job creators vs labor providers, that they too can rise from obscurity and poverty by simply following the rules and conforming, that wealth is to be idolized as the true route to happiness, that this entire fiscal mess should be laid at the feet of Obama, Democrats and Liberals in general, and that they are being led by crazies and extremists whose goals are the destruction of capitalism and the glory of mediocrity. " Cain leads this group doesn't he?

Sounds a bit like you are reciting the self defense liberal dogma now.

My favorite from the period that I remember was from a CBS man on the street interview, "I've noticed that most of these McGovern supporters seem to be longhairs wearing sandals and riding bikes. That's just not America" Today, different words but same meaning.

I was not a McGovern supporter but not because his supporters were "longhairs".  I just truly disagreed with his politics, even as a 20 something.  My dad was not particularly fond of me growing a beard in the late 60s but he grew to accept it. (My grandmother never did.)  I never had really long hair but for my dad's generation, it was long.

Curiously, the physical and economic growth of the middle class in 64-72 was concurrent with the highest taxes on the top tier incomes.

Actually, JFK cut the top marginal rates significantly.  There were loopholes out the wazoo.  I don't know what the effective overall rates were.  Nathan seems to be good at finding that stuff.

Edit: typo fix, missing "were"

[AquaMan]

Regardless of whether the changes were positive, helpful, destructive or whatever, those demonstrations were authentic, organic and led to changes in law and societal mores. These movements will also, in spite of the efforts to belittle, demonize and ignore them. It just seems funny that the status quo back then was a bunch of old disgruntled wealthy anti-Roosevelt, Goldwater type codgers that were laughing off the demonstrators. Today its the middle age, nouveau riche upper middle class professionals that are using the same techniques.

[Red Arrow]

Regardless of whether the changes were positive, helpful, destructive or whatever, those demonstrations were authentic, organic and led to changes in law and societal mores. These movements will also, in spite of the efforts to belittle, demonize and ignore them. It just seems funny that the status quo back then was a bunch of old disgruntled wealthy anti-Roosevelt, Goldwater type codgers that were laughing off the demonstrators. Today its the middle age, nouveau riche upper middle class professionals that are using the same techniques.

I am not about to say no changes are needed.  I think it's absurd that top CEOs make the money they do and can leave with a platinum plated gold parachute when they fail.  I don't think taxing the crap out of the rich will change that.  (They will just demand more money to make up for it.)  In that regard, I am like your protesters, unsure of the correct answer.  There are "answers" that I believe are incorrect.  I do not believe that no government regulations are the answer.  I do believe that agencies like OSHA and EPA need to be accountable to someone or something.

[ZYX]

Saw a group on the SE corner of 11th and Harvard today holding signs saying things like "How can I get a job when there are none to be had?" That argument is completely invalid in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Get over it and make something of yourself instead of whining on street corners.