Banks and their "fees"

[TheArtist]

   I can understand having a "fee" or charge to pay for a service of some sort, but for a bank to charge more than what is needed to pay for any service, solely in order to make more profit, seems untoward.  There is no "betterment" of society. The profit isn't being earned and the action isn't helping to create new wealth, they are just taking it from the person who did.  

 If one is adding value, providing a better service, etc. then you can fairly and competitively charge more for those things.  

 But even then, and I suppose my perspective is a little old fashioned or naive, I remember being a little kid and opening my first savings account.  I would save my change up and the occasional dollar or two and then we would go to the bank and make a deposit.  I would watch month after month as that money would grow and would write down the interest I would earn in my little book.  Now the typical, monthly maintenance fee that say BofA would charge would likely wipe a similarly inclined little kid out in short order lol.

Used to seem like the banks goal was to help you get wealthier.  The more money and wealth you had, the more successful you were, the better off they were as well because you had your money and wealth in their bank.   Or as it was said in that scene we all remember from "It's a Wonderful Life "  Your money is in this persons house, in so and so's property, in this persons business and so on.  The bank would make money on the interest.  They would do good for you, help you out, you would do better, and they would do better. They were taking a risk and making a loan, would charge interest and help you to create more wealth that would then go into another loan, etc.  

 I remember one instance last year where I was making a large deposit from a job that I had done.  The bank said they were going to put a hold on the deposit because of the large sum.  It seemed like an inordinantly long time to put the check on hold.  I asked them why the time was so long and the reply.... We have the right to hold a check for up to (dont remember precisely) 30 days.  I had already worked a long time for that and was kind of needing it in there asap and it wasn't a local check I could cash.  But regardless, I remember thinking... Sure you have the RIGHT to hold it for that long, but I am your customer, I am the one you are supposedly working FOR, I need the money to be in there soon, why would you want to hold on to a check that long?   Well we all know why, so they could charge me a fee.  

There again, they weren't earning the money, they didn't do anything to earn it, nothing was going on that would create a better world, better value, etc. they were just taking something because they could.  

Woe be to you if you over draw on your debit card. (for a while they were saying they couldn't make it so that the transaction wouldn't go through if you were low and used a debit card, funny how they can now)  Ever bought say a bag of 2$ chips or a coffee at a convenience store only to realize later you had made a mistake and now that bag of chips cost you 70$ ?   First they charge you 35$ for over drawing your account, then they charge you another 35$ for not covering the over draft in time.  Is 70$ a fair amount of interest on a 2$ loan lol?  Again, they are getting money that they didn't earn.  They werent honestly creating any wealth.

 Lately though I have been in the process of switching banks to one that doesn't have the crazy fees. Consolidated some bills and loans into one loan.  Elimenated all of my automatic bill withdrawals, (my income fluctuates too much for that to work well lol, better the occasional late fee from the actual bill versus the late fee AND the bank fees) etc.  And now that I am hearing that BofA is adding debit card fees,,, really glad I am leaving them.   And even their new fee seems wrong in that its not apparently tied to any real service or added value, they are putting it there to make up for what they say they will lose since they can't charge other fees, and on top of that say they will be making even more money off of them,,, again, not because they are adding value or wealth or bettering anything other than their own bottom line.  My banking experience and the services I would be using won't be any better or different, but they will be getting more money than ever from me and everyone else. They aren't in the business to help the Average Joe do better, and thus themselves do better,,, they are after what the Average Joe has worked hard to earn, and they have not, and be danged the consequences to the Average Joe.

 Surely, hopefully, the market will eventually decide.  Just like me changing the banks and working all that much harder to be ever smarter with my money.  But it sure seems like it's almost become the norm, a "right" even, to try to get something for nothing.

 Don't know if what I was trying to convey came across as well as I would like.  But some of these banks imo, are just a bunch of crooks lol.

[patric]

Sort of painted into a corner...
Keeping most of your cash at home or traveling with it is no longer an option these days.
Since "90 percent of U.S. bills carry traces of cocaine" (CNN) drug dogs will be drawn to it and your savings will be seized as "drug money".

[sgrizzle]

I left Bank of America for many reasons. Partially because they charged a new fee every time a day ended in Y. Partially because they continued to charge me for a Safety Deposit box for years after I closed it. Partially because when my checking account was stolen, they did nothing to stop it and their incompetent employees even reopened my account and let them take every dime I had out of multiple accounts.

I'm with Red Crown Credit Union who doesn't charge me for jack squat, posts my deposits a day earlier than BoA ever did, doesn't put holds on deposits, and has successfully blocked every fraud attempt BEFORE I got taken.

Support your local credit union, and tell BoA and their equivalents that they can kiss your cash.

[guido911]

Not sure I get your overdraft point Artist. If you overdraw, no matter the amount, you have spent money not belonging to you. You have spent the bank's money and the bank should be permitted to recover their money and a fee for that improper use--be it a mistake or on purpose.

As for Bank of America, good call. After they f'd over a friend of mine, I closed all my investment accounts there.

[Conan71]

I've been happy with IBC, my account is still free there.  I've given thought to going the credit union route a few times simply because they don't seem to be on the same track to charging for everything larger banks are.  Plus with a credit union, you are essentially one of the share-holders.

[TheArtist]

Not sure I get your overdraft point Artist. If you overdraw, no matter the amount, you have spent money not belonging to you. You have spent the bank's money and the bank should be permitted to recover their money and a fee for that improper use--be it a mistake or on purpose.

As for Bank of America, good call. After they f'd over a friend of mine, I closed all my investment accounts there.

Hey, I spend the banks money all the time via my credit card or loans lol.  I don't begrudge them their "fees" either way. It's the amount of the fees compared to the comparably tiny amount "borrowed" that seems overkill, like the 70$ charge for borrowing 2$ for the ice cream. I made a dumb mistake just a couple weeks ago, sure it was my mistake.  Whenever I make a deposit from my work I put 20% into an account for taxes.  I buggered up and accidently put the wrong account numbers on the deposits putting the small amount into the account I pay myself from. The check I then paid myself from out of that account almost bounced lol.  If I hadn't caught the mistake quickly and bills had gone through and had purchased a number of small items via my debit card which I sometimes do, the banks could have had a fieeeld day lol.    Essentially each overdraft is an extremely high "loan".  You don't steal the money, they expressly allow you to borrow it and yes you know they will charge you a fee. Some banks the fee is more reasonable, others like BofA is quite high.  The bank I had before them if I was at McD's to get an ice cream and ran my debit card and there wasn't enough in there to cover it, it simply didn't go through and I would pay cash or use my credit card.  But BofA wouldn't for a time allow that, they would have it go through, whether there was money in the account or not, but would charge the high fee, then if you make a deposit, because your in the negative, they will put a longer hold on the check which may allow more items to be "covered" and then they changed the rules recently so that if you did not cover the charge within a few days, they would charge you yet another fee on all the items that were not covered quickly enough.  Nothing has really changed from the services they gave before, they just figured out a way to add on another fee and tweak things so that they get more money, for doing nothing more than they had done before.  

[custosnox]

One of the things I just can't understand is BofA charging to cash their own checks.  I remember the first time I got a paycheck that was drawn on an account from them, and they wanted to charge me $5 for cashing it (I did not have an account with them).  Add on top of it the fact that I had an account through them that had gotten overdrawn and closed.  Some time later, I got the debt payed off.  So I figured I could get around this fee every time I cashed one of their checks by opening an account.  Well, it seems that the corporate office got the memo that the debt was paid, but not the branches.  I couldn't open an account because their system showed that I still owed money, even though calls to the main line confirmed them being paid. 

[sgrizzle]

Not sure I get your overdraft point Artist. If you overdraw, no matter the amount, you have spent money not belonging to you. You have spent the bank's money and the bank should be permitted to recover their money and a fee for that improper use--be it a mistake or on purpose.

As for Bank of America, good call. After they f'd over a friend of mine, I closed all my investment accounts there.

BoA will charge you overdraft fees even when you don't "technically" overdraft. Try this one:

10/1:
Have $100 in bank, get $20 gas at QT. In the background, BoA does an "authorization for $50 that is not visible online or to their CSRs

10/2:
Spend $40 on groceries and $25 at Taco Bueno. (a checkbook register would say you have $15 left)

10/3:
Pick up a $1 drink at QT, and $1 Sausage biscuit at Mcd.
Checkbook register shows $13 left, but you check bank and they say you overdrafted on 10/2 ($50 auth + $40 + $20 = $110 in their minds)
You got a $25 check in the mail, so you deposit it, because it should leave you safely at +$3

10/4
Check your bank balance, the authorization has cleared, but they have now charged you overdraft charges for your $1 drink and $1 sausage biscuit as well as another overdraft fee because the gas purchase finally posted. Your +$3 balance is now -$102

Initially put in $100
Spent: $87
Second deposit: $25
Final balance: -$102


Other fun facts:
BoA will hold on posting transactions if your balance is low, then post from largest to smallest, to generate the highest number of overdraft charges.
BoA posts transactions in this order: Overdraft Fees, Withdrawals, Deposits
BoA also takes at least one business day, sometimes as much as ten, to post a deposit. Even things like direct deposited paychecks.

[TheArtist]

  There were numerous times when I would think my balance was one thing, via my checkbook, and or even by checking my balance via an ATM  before taking out some cash, but then the next morning something strange had happened and you weren't even close lol.  It was like some sort of mathematical trick puzzle to piece together what they had done.  And sometimes I still couldn't figure it out.  Sometimes a deposit would be "pending" and look like it was there, but if for some reason or another you got close to a lower limit on your account, it would somehow always seem to arrange to stay pending until you went over and then would implement their "many charges magic formulas"  and deposit immediately after that lol, perhaps so they had enough to then cover their charges.  Was there actually any set of discernable rules for how long they could hold a deposit check or keep it pending?  Back in the old days if you checked your balance say via an ATM before you withdrew, or even tried to make a withdrawal that would have led to your account being overdrawn (for with them, sometimes the balance wasnt "really" the balance),,, it wouldn't allow you to.  But not anymore.  They had some guy from BofA on NPR the other day and people were of course complaining about these things like the ATM and the bank guy said, "All you have to do is check your balance before you make a withdrawal."  I was like "Really, and what good would that do lol? And on top of that it came to pass that they got my mortgage, though they didn't have it originally, and I had one of their credit cards from before.  Never was quite sure, but there seemed to be some fishy coincidences with deposit and withdrawal timings around the due dates for those items.

As for a "fee" for using someone elses money for a few days (like me and the 2$ ice cream cone example lol), what about the bank holding a 2,000$ or more check for a week?  Why don't I get to charge 35$ for them using my money lol?   You know danged well its been withdrawn from the bank that the check came out of, I have checked before by calling a client and having them look at their account, and though I deposited it, it wasn't in my account,,,, so where was it?  My guess would be in BofA's account.

Last fall I deposited a check for over 3,000$ for a project I had worked on for a while.  They held it for a few days, then it cleared, no problem.  Two weeks after the deposit, the check bounced. By then I had gone ahead and paid a bunch of bills.  I ended up being about 4,000$ in the hole after fees and charges.  That can hurt a poor little artist struggling to make a living.  You would think that if they held it and all those others before, in order to protect you they say, that once they to make the deposit, they will guarantee it or at least give you some leeway to help you take care of things. But of course not.   Never did get paid back for that bounced check, kept getting the delay/runaround and the guy who wrote it was a city inspector.

[Red Arrow]

I had a "free" checking account at BOA for a long time after a series of buy-outs.  My "free" checking account required a minimum balance in either the checking or other account at BOA.  I had a CD.  They were paying really low interest on CDs. When I could still get 1.75% at the Credit Union, BOA was proud to pay 0.5% on their CDs.  I finally got disgusted and changed banks.

BOK (not a typo, also changing from another bank) played the US mail delay one too many times.  They were paying really crappy rates on CDs.  I had a CD ready to renew and received the usual notice that I would have 7 days (or maybe 10) after the renewal date to do something other than let it automatically renew.  All the other places I have/had CDs mailed the renewal interest rate in time for me to make a decision on renewal.  NOT BOK.  They conveniently mailed the new interest rate so I received it a few days after the grace period or whatever they call it.  I fussed and fumed at the teller, wound up paying the penalty for early withdrawl of my funds and took my money elsewhere.

Maybe they don't want small accounts.  If enough folks (can?) vote with their $ and go somewhere else, it might wake them up.  I have no sympathy for them.  Not too many industries can get the markup they do.  Borrow your product for 0.5% and sell it for at least 6 times that.

[Townsend]

Other fun facts:
BoA will hold on posting transactions if your balance is low, then post from largest to smallest, to generate the highest number of overdraft charges.
BoA posts transactions in this order: Overdraft Fees, Withdrawals, Deposits
BoA also takes at least one business day, sometimes as much as ten, to post a deposit. Even things like direct deposited paychecks.

Long time user of B of A since before it was bank 4 or Nations or whatever it was.  I believe I remember reading they no longer post that way.

In any case I have a few direct deposits going into accounts there and they post immediately.  If I deposit at an ATM they'll show $300 usable immediately and the rest has always cleared the next day.

The $5 monthly fee for debit card use wouldn't bother me except that I use that debit card at Sam's so they'll charge me I guess.  Not sure if I "use as credit".  

If this is actually going to happen I will prob just move accounts to USAA.  It's where my mortgage, CC, and insurance is anyway.  (and you can deposit checks with your phone)

*Edited to say moving from them sucks because their online banking rocks.

[Hoss]

Long time user of B of A since before it was bank 4 or Nations or whatever it was.  I believe I remember reading they no longer post that way.

In any case I have a few direct deposits going into accounts there and they post immediately.  If I deposit at an ATM they'll show $300 usable immediately and the rest has always cleared the next day.

The $5 monthly fee for debit card use wouldn't bother me except that I use that debit card at Sam's so they'll charge me I guess.  Not sure if I "use as credit". 

If this is actually going to happen I will prob just move accounts to USAA.  It's where my mortgage, CC, and insurance is anyway.  (and you can deposit checks with your phone)

*Edited to say moving from them sucks because their online banking rocks.

I agree. I've been with them since I had Bank4 or whatever it was. Their online billpay is superb. I'd like to find another bank that has ebill initiated payments but my search is early. And the last time I ever had issue with them was during their NationBank days. I have twice monthly direct deposits and have never had an issue with them.

Sent from my AT&T Atrix4G using fat fingers

[guido911]

I had a "free" checking account at BOA for a long time after a series of buy-outs.  My "free" checking account required a minimum balance in either the checking or other account at BOA.  I had a CD.  They were paying really low interest on CDs. When I could still get 1.75% at the Credit Union, BOA was proud to pay 0.5% on their CDs.  I finally got disgusted and changed banks.

BOK (not a typo, also changing from another bank) played the US mail delay one too many times.  They were paying really crappy rates on CDs.  I had a CD ready to renew and received the usual notice that I would have 7 days (or maybe 10) after the renewal date to do something other than let it automatically renew.  All the other places I have/had CDs mailed the renewal interest rate in time for me to make a decision on renewal.  NOT BOK.  They conveniently mailed the new interest rate so I received it a few days after the grace period or whatever they call it.  I fussed and fumed at the teller, wound up paying the penalty for early withdrawl of my funds and took my money elsewhere.

Maybe they don't want small accounts.  If enough folks (can?) vote with their $ and go somewhere else, it might wake them up.  I have no sympathy for them.  Not too many industries can get the markup they do.  Borrow your product for 0.5% and sell it for at least 6 times that.

I use BOk solely for paying bills for the home, just as I use Arvest and Bank of the West for company banking for myself and wife. I was so pi$$ed at BofA that I no longer use banks for investments such as CDs or what have you.

[sgrizzle]

In any case I have a few direct deposits going into accounts there and they post immediately.  

I thought that too, until I switched to a credit union and suddenly my friday payday became thursday.


I got shafted on some e-bill initiated payments with BoA. Sometimes they would try to pay the full balance of credit cards instead of the monthly payment. Other times they payment never went at all. Every time I had a problem they blamed the company I was paying. It got to where I was having to babysit it so much, I turned it off.

[Hoss]

I thought that too, until I switched to a credit union and suddenly my friday payday became thursday.


I got shafted on some e-bill initiated payments with BoA. Sometimes they would try to pay the full balance of credit cards instead of the monthly payment. Other times they payment never went at all. Every time I had a problem they blamed the company I was paying. It got to where I was having to babysit it so much, I turned it off.

That's just weird.  You must have some bad juju or something.  In the years I've been using the ebill initiated billpay, I have never had a problem.  Same with my deposits.  Either that or Town and I are two exceptional cases...wait, what?