(PROJECT) Brady Fairfield Inn by Marriott

[Red Arrow]

I don't understand why so many want that?  

That pretty much sums it up in both directions.

Also, you HAVE to drive there is no other suitable form of mass transit.

Even if there were effective mass transit from the burbs to downtown, I believe there would need to be something more unique to a downtown establishment than the view of other buildings vs. a parking lot to draw significant patrons.

Why make it illegal to have any other situation even if you wanted it (mixed use not allowed, minimum parking requirements, on top of biased transportation/infrastructure allocations, etc.)?

I agree, it should be available for those who want it.  The link from around the corner where I grew up is below.  It was otherwise surrounded by mostly single family homes and some apartments.  It was also next to the trolley line that connected with Philadelphia public transit.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=19064&hl=en&ll=39.934046,-75.329234&spn=0.001861,0.004034&sll=36.153982,-95.992775&sspn=1.003483,2.06543&vpsrc=6&hnear=Springfield,+Pennsylvania+19064&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=39.934039,-75.329317&panoid=iKKd-ZfuYjaGPU0MDIBtIQ&cbp=12,48.38,,0,0

I don't think people realize how much of a joy a good urban environment can be, how it can be more efficient and cost effective.  I don't think they realize how much more interesting a good urban environment can be.  Etc.

This comes back to your opening statement.  A good portion of joy and interesting are what you like and want to do.  Urban space utilization is certainly more efficient. (Except for Tulsa's surface parking.)  I may question cost effective because with increased density, more services and utilities are required.  Many urban promoters accept that living in "the city" is more expensive but "it's worth it".   Back to opinion on that call.  

Suburbia isn't bad per say, but we have gone so far in that direction while at the same time ignoring urbanity that we have made it a problem imo.  It has become unhealthy, and too many people are still chosing it far to much and to the detriment of other choices that could make them and their city more "healthy".    

I find it ironic that in many parts of the country, public transit is what made suburbia possible.

[DTowner]

I'm sympathetic to Artist's point of view, but no matter how awesome downtown ever becomes, there will always be places like Baker St.  That's ok by me as that means everyone can find the type of place that is comfortable to them.  Besides, I am all for keeping those "Affliction" shirt wearers out south where they belong.

More troubling is the reason that Baker St. and similar places are so popular with a segment that would seem to be a more natural fit to hangout in downtown, Cherry St. or Brookside.  The daughter of a colleague of mine recently graduated from OU and moved back to Tulsa to work.  Many of her friends from OU and OSU did the same and they all hang out at Baker St.  Why?  Because her adn all her friends grew up in the Union/Broken Arrow/Jenks area and, having moved back to town, live out south.  Some live with parents, but even those who don't now live in south Tulsa apartments.  If you're young and you want to live in an affordable, newer apartment building that offers all the cool amenities, where else are you going to live but out south?  Once you live out south, you are going to hang out primarily at places out south.

The point has been made a lot, but it's worth repeating.  Downtown/midtown needs apartments that are affordable to young professionals and recent college graduates.  If you give those folks the option of living in or near downtown, many will choose to do so.  Right now, they don't even have that option.

[carltonplace]

I'm sympathetic to Artist's point of view, but no matter how awesome downtown ever becomes, there will always be places like Baker St.  That's ok by me as that means everyone can find the type of place that is comfortable to them.  Besides, I am all for keeping those "Affliction" shirt wearers out south where they belong.

More troubling is the reason that Baker St. and similar places are so popular with a segment that would seem to be a more natural fit to hangout in downtown, Cherry St. or Brookside.  The daughter of a colleague of mine recently graduated from OU and moved back to Tulsa to work.  Many of her friends from OU and OSU did the same and they all hang out at Baker St.  Why?  Because her adn all her friends grew up in the Union/Broken Arrow/Jenks area and, having moved back to town, live out south.  Some live with parents, but even those who don't now live in south Tulsa apartments.  If you're young and you want to live in an affordable, newer apartment building that offers all the cool amenities, where else are you going to live but out south?  Once you live out south, you are going to hang out primarily at places out south.

The point has been made a lot, but it's worth repeating.  Downtown/midtown needs apartments that are affordable to young professionals and recent college graduates.  If you give those folks the option of living in or near downtown, many will choose to do so.  Right now, they don't even have that option.

And right or wrong Downtown still has a perception problem that it is scary or unsafe. As I said before we are still at -3 on the curve for development and change or perception that Downtown is a great place to live, work, and play.

[Teatownclown]

Baker Street is a trendy chain place...it's allure will fade. There's few places out south. There's too many downtown. And you are right about the reasons they are congregating south.

[Red Arrow]

Baker Street is a trendy chain place...it's allure will fade.

It will get redecorated and renamed, possibly under new management and the cycle repeats.

[heironymouspasparagus]

In past decades, people drove in from suburb to downtown to work, then back again.  Now, the downtown evening visitors drive from suburb to downtown to entertain, then back again.  We have trouble with balance.

We have been coming downtown about 3 times a month this year, and the vast majority of the people I see are not living downtown.  There ain't that many places to live there.

I could see the urban life, if there was a way to get a decent garden.... maybe take one of those wasted parking lots and make it a community garden.

[jacobi]

I think it's a false dichotomy to think either downtown or bixby.  Look at owen park, or crosby heights, or brady heights.  Minutes from downtown (on a bicycle) beautiful homes, more affordable than out south, and plent of room for a garden.  This leads me to my second point.  You are right, there is not enough housing downtown.  Developers are working on a few places, but ultimately we are still waiting on landholders to finally move on their properties.  David sharp seems to have finally gotten wise.  I wish others would follow suit.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I think it's a false dichotomy to think either downtown or bixby.  Look at owen park, or crosby heights, or brady heights.  Minutes from downtown (on a bicycle) beautiful homes, more affordable than out south, and plent of room for a garden.  This leads me to my second point.  You are right, there is not enough housing downtown.  Developers are working on a few places, but ultimately we are still waiting on landholders to finally move on their properties.  David sharp seems to have finally gotten wise.  I wish others would follow suit.

There are some excellent houses in all those areas - maybe run down, but the architecture for many is stunning!  Has been 3 or 4 months since I drove north of downtown, but looked like there was considerable rebuilding going on.  Haven't made it out to Owen Park area in a long time.

[carltonplace]

There are some excellent houses in all those areas - maybe run down, but the architecture for many is stunning!  Has been 3 or 4 months since I drove north of downtown, but looked like there was considerable rebuilding going on.  Haven't made it out to Owen Park area in a long time.

I went to the Brady Home tour a couple of Sundays back. The neighborhood is looking great and the people were in love with their homes and the neighborhood. I live in an old home (102 years old) but I got house envy in several of the old Craftsman houses with their arts and crafts dining rooms, amazing crown mouldings, paneling details, old light fixtures, patterned wood floors, comfortable porches, built-in book cases and multiple stair ways. There is new construction, updated homes and some that are being meticulously taken apart and put back together. Its a very exciting time for that neighborhood and still plenty of opportunities to buy a home that needs some love on the cheap, or an empty lot with stunning downtown views to build as you like.

[Red Arrow]

I think it's a false dichotomy to think either downtown or bixby. 

Most of Tulsa is more suburban than urban.

[nathanm]

The point has been made a lot, but it's worth repeating.  Downtown/midtown needs apartments that are affordable to young professionals and recent college graduates.  If you give those folks the option of living in or near downtown, many will choose to do so.  Right now, they don't even have that option.

What? There are apartments at all price points inside the IDL now. Some of them are even cheap and pretty decent. Expand your search a mile or two from DT proper and you can find pretty much anything you want. Out south, my apartment experience was that they were either old and run down like Sunchase and its ilk or high dollar. The place I used to live is now up to $925/mo for the apartment I used to rent for $650.

For that price, you can get an equivalent apartment downtown or a 1500 square foot house near TU. There's not really any financial reason to live in South Tulsa unless you want to live in a McMansion. Something equivalent to that size costs a lot more where I live than at 111th and Sheridan, unlike more modest homes. It may well be more convenient if you work out that way, as many people do. But if the complaint is a lack of affordable housing in/within a couple of miles of downtown, the problem is that the person complaining isn't actually looking, not that what they're looking for doesn't exist. Perhaps better marketing could help.

[jacobi]

What? There are apartments at all price points inside the IDL now. Some of them are even cheap and pretty decent.

I think the problem right now is that demand FAR outpaces supply (in the IDL, that is).  There are very few units up for grabs right now.  THere are definitly some but no more than unusall turnover rates.  You are dead on the money about rundown south tulsa apartments.  It's a disease inhearent in sprawl.  When one is obsessed with what is new and highly phobic about anything that is *gasp* 20 years old, there seems to be successive rings of growth and decay that radiate out from the city center.  Right now the ring of booming seems to be at Owasso, jenks and BA.  If you come into town a few miles you notice that the homes built in the late 70's early 80's look long in the tooth.  It's kind of funny to think of suburban decay, but it definitely seems to exist.  It is VERY fortunate that places like maple ridge managed to retain their value and that the home owners maintain their properties.  There is more to be said here, but I have a paper to write. 

[rdj]

Maple Ridge wasn't the "Maple Ridge" of today 20-25 years ago.

[DTowner]

What? There are apartments at all price points inside the IDL now.

My point wasn't that there aren't any apartments near downtown, only that there aren't enough and very few new apartments.  I know we can criticize the attitude, but an older building often isn't as appealing to a potential renter after looking at a new building with all the bells and whistles.

That's why I was so hopeful about the apartment project that was supposed to go in behind the Food Pyramid in Brookside.  Not everyone will want to live in a high rise (or low rise) building downtown, but higher density in mid-town will help downtown, Cherry St. and Brookside continue to grow and prosper as entertainment districts.  Right now, if you are moving to Tulsa and want to live in an apartment in midtown or near downtown, the available options are pretty limited and not much is being done about it.

[carltonplace]

My point wasn't that there aren't any apartments near downtown, only that there aren't enough and very few new apartments.  I know we can criticize the attitude, but an older building often isn't as appealing to a potential renter after looking at a new building with all the bells and whistles.

That's why I was so hopeful about the apartment project that was supposed to go in behind the Food Pyramid in Brookside.  Not everyone will want to live in a high rise (or low rise) building downtown, but higher density in mid-town will help downtown, Cherry St. and Brookside continue to grow and prosper as entertainment districts.  Right now, if you are moving to Tulsa and want to live in an apartment in midtown or near downtown, the available options are pretty limited and not much is being done about it.

Lincoln Park, Renaisance, Tribune II, Detroit Lofts are all new(er) apartments.