I Don't Get It I Guess

[guido911]

Let's work from the premise that 53% of Americans do not pay federal income tax. I went to the mall today, and to get there I had to drive through horrible traffic. How is it that 47 out of every hundred of those people in their vehicles or at the Apple store, or just walking around the mall pay no federal income tax? The answer of course is that the 53%ers make it possible through forced subsidization by taxation.

And another thing, let's assume that OWS is successful and Wall Street, bankers, and every other institution that OWS has targeted woke up tomorrow, saw the errors of their ways, and said: "You know what, you are right. We screwed up and we want to make amends. Who do we write the check to?" The easy answer is "The U.S. Treasury". However, the persons that have been actually and directly damaged by their misdeeds, in my opinion, is not every American. It's the 53% who paid the federal income tax that went to these institutions. In other words, the 47% that paid nothing isn't out a single dime. Now, if payroll (which is possible since the government does borrow money from Social Security--IIRC), state, and other taxes went to these institutions, we can discuss that. But it just blows my mind that I can be standing in any random group of 100 persons and know that almost half have no skin in the federal income tax game.

[Ed W]

Forty percent of Americans don't pay federal income tax, Guido, because they don't make enough money.  It's called income disparity.  General Electric didn't pay taxes last year, either.  So if you believe that taxes are necessary and that we should all bear the burden of paying them, perhaps we should insist that those with the deepest pockets pay a fair share.

[nathanm]

If you throw out the jobless teenagers that you'll inevitably find at the mall, a lot more of the folks surrounding you will actually have some income tax liability. The mall is a place people with money to spend go.

What I find somewhat ironic about this complaint is that it is in fact the tax cut brigade (along with the crappy economy) that is responsible for fewer people paying income tax. By dropping their rate 5%, you managed to help a lot of people have their income tax liability completely offset by credits. I'd think that, given the aversion to taxation, that you'd be happy that fewer people are subjected to being taxed.

[RecycleMichael]

But it just blows my mind that I can be standing in any random group of 100 persons and know that almost half have no skin in the federal income tax game.

Maybe it is where you are standing. Stop hanging out at corporate headquarters.

[guido911]

Forty percent of Americans don't pay federal income tax, Guido, because they don't make enough money.  It's called income disparity.  General Electric didn't pay taxes last year, either.  So if you believe that taxes are necessary and that we should all bear the burden of paying them, perhaps we should insist that those with the deepest pockets pay a fair share.

That's not my point. I know there are those that cannot afford to pay federal income tax. But 47 FREAKIN PERCENT! And if they cannot afford it, then why does it look like they can when I see what has to be some of those people shopping at the mall, dining at restaurants, etc. And of those 47%, how many are bitching about some of the other 53% should be required to pay more?

The GE corporate tax argument is a good one, but it has little to do with why nearly half of us pay no share of the federal tax burden. IMO, and as I have said before, if you pay nothing, shut your pie hole. And this is directed at the unemployed OWS protesters complaining that they are entitled to some benefit at another person/company's expense. For the life of me, I cannot see how hard-working people in this forum could empathize with these freeloaders. Like this one:

That punk should sicken and disgust you and anyone else that works hard and struggled to get their lot. Seriously, where do these people come from? Who taught people like this that they are entitled to anything for free. And I don't want to hear about how he the exception or the "fringe". There are videos like this all over the place.

[guido911]

Maybe it is where you are standing. Stop hanging out at corporate headquarters.

You rock RM. lol

[guido911]

If you throw out the jobless teenagers that you'll inevitably find at the mall, a lot more of the folks surrounding you will actually have some income tax liability. The mall is a place people with money to spend go.

What I find somewhat ironic about this complaint is that it is in fact the tax cut brigade (along with the crappy economy) that is responsible for fewer people paying income tax. By dropping their rate 5%, you managed to help a lot of people have their income tax liability completely offset by credits. I'd think that, given the aversion to taxation, that you'd be happy that fewer people are subjected to being taxed.

I don't have an aversion to taxation as it's absolutely necessary. We need a military, police/fire, stop lights, etc. My problem is that I do not want to hear people who pay NOTHING demanding others and corporations pay more. Like I said to Ed, I just do not understand where that mentality comes from. When I was young, and perhaps you and others can relate, I do not recall being taught that if I wanted something it would just be given to me because I complained long and loudly enough. And I know the economy sucks, but why are these OWS people blaming Wall Street? Why aren't they going to their government and demanding it act instead of going to wealthy peoples homes and screaming at them. Do they think by doing so the rich will just bust out their checkbooks? Or, in reality, will doing so perhaps piss them off and they ship even more jobs overseas.

[Ed W]

I don't know what the federal debt is just now, but let's play with some numbers.  There are about 300 million people in the US, and if 40% pay no federal taxes, that's 120 million folks.  Let's assume that a third of them are children who have no income.  That leaves 80 million.  If the poverty line is $22,000 and they pay 10% in taxes (as a hypothetical) it comes to $2.2K multiplied by 80 million or 186 billion dollars. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the national debt is currently about $15 trillion?  So the poorest Americans - if they paid 10% in taxes - would contribute a little more than 1%.

Follow the money, Guido, not the ideology.  If you want to make a real dent in the federal budget and the deficit, follow the money.  It ain't in the hands of poor people. 

[guido911]

I don't know what the federal debt is just now, but let's play with some numbers.  There are about 300 million people in the US, and if 40% pay no federal taxes, that's 120 million folks.  Let's assume that a third of them are children who have no income.  That leaves 80 million.  If the poverty line is $22,000 and they pay 10% in taxes (as a hypothetical) it comes to $2.2K multiplied by 80 million or 186 billion dollars. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the national debt is currently about $15 trillion?  So the poorest Americans - if they paid 10% in taxes - would contribute a little more than 1%.

Follow the money, Guido, not the ideology.  If you want to make a real dent in the federal budget and the deficit, follow the money.  It ain't in the hands of poor people. 

I am following the money, believe me, especially when its time to write the tax check. Again, this is not about those persons living destitute in the Appalachians or, locally, a little ways east of us. My point is I just don't understand why those that are able-bodied people who made bad choices--either with a career choice or forking out tens of thousands on a dipsmile college degree--have the nerve to waive signs demanding others pay more. My point is also about those who pay nothing shutting their gravy-training mouths. Come on Ed. Didn't that punk in that video pi$$ you off? That cannot be the way you were raised, or how you raised yours. My dad, who was as blue collar and union as could be, would have kicked the sh!t out of me if that kid was me. 

Ed, I enjoy fighting with you because you are reasonable. But right now we are in apples and oranges area. 47% paying nothing and 53% paying at least something is okay with you?

[Red Arrow]

I'd think that, given the aversion to taxation, that you'd be happy that fewer people are subjected to being taxed.

I think I am getting dizzy from the spinning.

[Red Arrow]

I don't know what the federal debt is just now, but let's play with some numbers.  There are about 300 million people in the US, and if 40% pay no federal taxes, that's 120 million folks.  Let's assume that a third of them are children who have no income.  That leaves 80 million.  If the poverty line is $22,000 and they pay 10% in taxes (as a hypothetical) it comes to $2.2K multiplied by 80 million or 186 billion dollars. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the national debt is currently about $15 trillion?  So the poorest Americans - if they paid 10% in taxes - would contribute a little more than 1%.

Follow the money, Guido, not the ideology.  If you want to make a real dent in the federal budget and the deficit, follow the money.  It ain't in the hands of poor people. 

Go to the link below that Nathan provided to me in another thread.  In order to make a dent, the income threshold gets a lot lower than many of us think.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html#table6

[guido911]

I think I am getting dizzy from the spinning.

The spinning on this subject is somewhat unnecessary. My gripe is how we as a country got to the point where snot-nosed kids can with the straightest of faces publicly demand someone else pay for their education. Same goes for those who pay nothing demanding others that do pay, pay more. I am being 100% serious--what happened? We had tough times in the past. And, yes, I understand that the tea party came to be when such a movement did not take place in tough times. But we know that was because of racism.  But again, in all seriousness, did the tea party demand others to pay for things they couldn't afford?

[Ed W]

I am following the money, believe me, especially when its time to write the tax check. Again, this is not about those persons living destitute in the Appalachians or, locally, a little ways east of us. My point is I just don't understand why those that are able-bodied people who made bad choices--either with a career choice or forking out tens of thousands on a dipsmile college degree--have the nerve to waive signs demanding others pay more. My point is also about those who pay nothing shutting their gravy-training mouths. Come on Ed. Didn't that punk in that video pi$$ you off? That cannot be the way you were raised, or how you raised yours. My dad, who was as blue collar and union as could be, would have kicked the sh!t out of me if that kid was me. 

Ed, I enjoy fighting with you because you are reasonable. But right now we are in apples and oranges area. 47% paying nothing and 53% paying at least something is okay with you?

You're right about an apples and oranges comparison, Guido.  I think we have a fundamentally different view of the world and those in it.  I make enough money to be comfortable - i.e. I don't have to worry about paying the bills or where my next meal will come from, but a major medical expense could put the family in serious trouble.  That's probably true of most of us.  But I don't use money as a yardstick to measure my success or lack of it.  Making more money will not make me happier.  It won't make me more comfortable, though it could undoubtedly be used to purchase more toys.  That's an illusive form of happiness because it doesn't last long.  Lasting happiness isn't derived from material things.  Instead, it comes from those people around us.  

So I'm not overly concerned about whether the couple at the next table are making more or less money than me, or whether we pay the same amounts in taxes.  I don't believe the poor should be punished for not making more money, as the Heritage Foundation seemed to imply when they pointed out that poor people have air conditioning, cable television, and automobiles.  It's not important and it doesn't have an impact on my happiness.  I'm realistic enough to realize that some people will game the system regardless of their income level.  The poor will be with us always, along with hucksters, shysters, and con men of various stripes.  

I do know people who believe that by making more money, they're somehow better people.  They're wrong, of course, because true character comes from within, not from a bank account.

My apologies for waxing philosophical today.  I'm awash in a gallon or so of coffee as my work day started at 4AM.  There's a nap in my immediate future.

[guido911]

I'm awash in a gallon or so of coffee as my work day started at 4AM.

What the hell is that all about?

[Teatownclown]

Let's work from the premise that 53% of Americans do not pay federal income tax. I went to the mall today, and to get there I had to drive through horrible traffic. How is it that 47 out of every hundred of those people in their vehicles or at the Apple store, or just walking around the mall pay no federal income tax? The answer of course is that the 53%ers make it possible through forced subsidization by taxation.

And another thing, let's assume that OWS is successful and Wall Street, bankers, and every other institution that OWS has targeted woke up tomorrow, saw the errors of their ways, and said: "You know what, you are right. We screwed up and we want to make amends. Who do we write the check to?" The easy answer is "The U.S. Treasury". However, the persons that have been actually and directly damaged by their misdeeds, in my opinion, is not every American. It's the 53% who paid the federal income tax that went to these institutions. In other words, the 47% that paid nothing isn't out a single dime. Now, if payroll (which is possible since the government does borrow money from Social Security--IIRC), state, and other taxes went to these institutions, we can discuss that. But it just blows my mind that I can be standing in any random group of 100 persons and know that almost half have no skin in the federal income tax game.

This is coo coo....%43 don't pay any Federal taxes because they are frickin' broke.  The %57 don't blame the banks and instead they just say bend over and take it America.