Official 2011 Christmas Season vs. Holiday Season

[heironymouspasparagus]

Christmas is not a Christian holiday is a belief structure?

Christmas as Christian holiday is an article of faith.  The secular part of the celebration - also called Christmas - (everything outside the part related to Christ's birth) is the renamed, re-purposed celebration of the winter solstice.  Got two things going on at once under a single umbrella nomenclature.

[Red Arrow]

Christmas is not a Christian holiday is a belief structure?

The concept that the Christmas celebration was created to coincide with a pagan holiday doesn't mean that it's not now a Christian celebration.  I don't think many, if any, are trying to start a religion based on that concept.

[cannon_fodder]

Guido:

1) You started a threat called "Christmas Season v. Holiday Season" which started with an article discussing putting more of the celebration of Jesus' birth into government - then you complain about the responses?  The ONLY reason anyone commented anything about this was because you brought it to light.  It's not like I, or anyone else, went out of our way to tell you we disagree with your opinion or beliefs.  If you don't want others to disagree with your beliefs then keep them to yourself, but if you choose to speak about them then you should expect, and welcome, discord.

2)

Don't like Christmas or what it stands for, don't celebrate it. Just don't run me down because I choose to, or if I want some of the trappings associated with Christmas like parades, tree lightings, etc. which has been a large part of my family tradition.

I have no problem with Christmas and to a large extent I do celebrate it.  I will not "run you down" because you choose to celebrate it nor take issue with your family traditions.  However, the basis of this thread was that government should not celebrate "the holidays" but should celebrate the birth of a particular religion's deity and adopt the traditions, symbolism, and even language associated with that holiday.  

It is on that basis that I disagree.  You can call it desperate if you want - but I find it off that with a belief in a trio of omnipotent beings the vernacular used to describe an evergreen tree is of such importance.  If the State of Oklahoma has a Christmas Tree, a Holiday Tree, a Pagan Tree of Life, or no tree at all... it will not interfere with what you celebrate or your families traditions.  

However, if a State instution adopts a religious icon from a particular group it IS to the detriment of every other group.  Even if, nay, especially when  the religious icon represents the majority. The State should strive to avoid even the mere appearance of favoring one religion over the other - particularily when, by your own statements, the State's failure to adopt such a tradition will not impair those that wish to partake.

In other words... having no Christmas tree doesn't hurt anyone, having one does to at least a minimal extent.  And for the record, I will erect a Christmas tree at my house, my family owns a Christmas tree farm, and my family and I will drive around enjoying the Christmas lights.  It's not personal for me, but the principle still matters.

[Red Arrow]

Christmas as Christian holiday is an article of faith. 

My Grandparents were (they have both passed on) Jehovah's Witnesses.  They did not celebrate Christmas.  They said it was not in the Bible to celebrate the birth of Christ.

[carltonplace]

Dried pine needles?

Don't forget the annual opportunity to rearrange your funiture in favor of a large fire hazzard.

[guido911]

Guido:

1) You started a threat called "Christmas Season v. Holiday Season" which started with an article discussing putting more of the celebration of Jesus' birth into government - then you complain about the responses?  The ONLY reason anyone commented anything about this was because you brought it to light.  It's not like I, or anyone else, went out of our way to tell you we disagree with your opinion or beliefs.  If you don't want others to disagree with your beliefs then keep them to yourself, but if you choose to speak about them then you should expect, and welcome, discord.

2)  

I have no problem with Christmas and to a large extent I do celebrate it.  I will not "run you down" because you choose to celebrate it nor take issue with your family traditions.  However, the basis of this thread was that government should not celebrate "the holidays" but should celebrate the birth of a particular religion's deity and adopt the traditions, symbolism, and even language associated with that holiday.  

It is on that basis that I disagree.  You can call it desperate if you want - but I find it off that with a belief in a trio of omnipotent beings the vernacular used to describe an evergreen tree is of such importance.  If the State of Oklahoma has a Christmas Tree, a Holiday Tree, a Pagan Tree of Life, or no tree at all... it will not interfere with what you celebrate or your families traditions.  

However, if a State instution adopts a religious icon from a particular group it IS to the detriment of every other group.  Even if, nay, especially when  the religious icon represents the majority. The State should strive to avoid even the mere appearance of favoring one religion over the other - particularily when, by your own statements, the State's failure to adopt such a tradition will not impair those that wish to partake.

In other words... having no Christmas tree doesn't hurt anyone, having one does to at least a minimal extent.  And for the record, I will erect a Christmas tree at my house, my family owns a Christmas tree farm, and my family and I will drive around enjoying the Christmas lights.  It's not personal for me, but the principle still matters.

I am only "complaining" about one response--and that would be yours. You are the one that seriously stated that "Christmas isn't even a Christian holiday." And I didn't start this thread to champion government involving itself in religious matters. Personally, I don't want government actively interfering with decades or even centuries of traditions held by families all over this country. If a town has had "Christmas" parades or "Christmas tree lightings" on its square for decades, why can't it be left alone?. If you don't like it, don't go. People shouldn't feel threatened or freak out if that governor who called a Christmas tree what he believes it to be, which was what my initial post was pointing out.

You know, we managed to get by as a country for 200 plus years with Christmas trees and parades before the PC crowd in recent years discovered their collective panties could no long be unwadded.

[guido911]

Don't forget the annual opportunity to rearrange your funiture in favor of a large fire hazzard.

Well there's that. Should I move my Christmas tree away from the fire place?

[guido911]

My Grandparents were (they have both passed on) Jehovah's Witnesses.  They did not celebrate Christmas.  They said it was not in the Bible to celebrate the birth of Christ.

I try to stay focused on what I consider the true meaning of Christmas according to my faith. Anticipation and hope. I can see how some folks take the position that since Christ's birth was not celebrated in the Bible that it should not be celebrated. But as I wrote earlier, there is so much in the Bible about the foretelling of Jesus' coming and the miracles leading up to his birth that in my opinion are what Christmas is about.

[Townsend]

the PC crowd in recent years discovered their collective panties could no long be unwadded.

My opinion is there's uncalled for wadding on both sides of the issue.

The holiday parade is an example.  It's privately funded and the organizers decided to make it more inclusive.  The wads were massive.  

Strangely, the wads were much more apparent 3 years after the change when Inhofe noticed the parade he was riding in each year was not named "christmas"

[cannon_fodder]

so you agree that Christmas isn't about parades or trees?  Then why page after page of you arguing with people about it.

Your primary concern is that government should celebrate your religious holiday in your family's tradition.  Your not defending any actual belief.  Which is why you failed to address the merits of my reply. In short - why insist on the State recognizing religious practices?

Tradition alone is not a reason to continue a practice.

And clearly my "Christmas isn't even a Christian holiday" hyperbole was followed up by my actual talking points.  Not sure what in there is offensive as it is all very bland, largely referencing the fact that religions always steal ideas from each other.  It shouldn't be offensive that Christianty, which is after all practiced by people, is no different in that respect than any other religion.  Pagans didn't go from Roman goddesses to modern christians straight away.

[Red Arrow]

I try to stay focused on what I consider the true meaning of Christmas according to my faith. Anticipation and hope. I can see how some folks take the position that since Christ's birth was not celebrated in the Bible that it should not be celebrated. But as I wrote earlier, there is so much in the Bible about the foretelling of Jesus' coming and the miracles leading up to his birth that in my opinion are what Christmas is about.

The only reason I brought up the Witnesses is to show that even within Christianity, there are differences of opinion about the Christmas celebration.

[heironymouspasparagus]

My Grandparents were (they have both passed on) Jehovah's Witnesses.  They did not celebrate Christmas.  They said it was not in the Bible to celebrate the birth of Christ.

You are right, some don't - but it has been defined by many as a celebration of the birth.  Has become much more elaborate celebration, but I believe that yes it was in the Bible to celebrate the birth - the visit by the three guys with gifts, etc.  Small, but still, in my opinion that sets the precedent.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I try to stay focused on what I consider the true meaning of Christmas according to my faith. Anticipation and hope. I can see how some folks take the position that since Christ's birth was not celebrated in the Bible that it should not be celebrated.

From previous note;  when I read the stories, it feels to me like it was a celebration - a birthday party, if you will - of His birth.  At the very least the first birthday.  Now, there is much more involved, most of which I don't really care for very much.

[guido911]

so you agree that Christmas isn't about parades or trees?  Then why page after page of you arguing with people about it.

Your primary concern is that government should celebrate your religious holiday in your family's tradition.  Your not defending any actual belief.  Which is why you failed to address the merits of my reply. In short - why insist on the State recognizing religious practices?

Page after page? Care to show me what you are talking about. And I said nothing about government celebrating anything. I don't want it in the way. You, on the other hand, want government in the way and want government to say to me, "No, you can't use our city streets for your parade." It's a matter of perspective I guess.

To me, Christmas is not about its trappings, but I still take my kids to Christmas events, parades, put up a Christmas tree, watch "It's a Wonderful Life" and "A Christmas Story" and "Scrooged", see the Nutcracker, go to Silver Dollar City's Christmas event, have a family dinner, open gifts, and attend Mass because its fun and brings back personal memories of when I was young.

[guido911]

The only reason I brought up the Witnesses is to show that even within Christianity, there are differences of opinion about the Christmas celebration.

Oh I got that. And I have known about that particular faith's position on Christmas.