Transit : Planning and Issues (Streetcar, Light Rail, Bus, Bikes, etc)

[LandArchPoke]

There was a lot of interesting transit issues being discussed on some of the development issues so I figured I would make it's own area to discuss on here.

Also, I'd like people to give a lot of input on what they would like to see Tulsa do and maybe here after some good discussion happens I can take this and put it into a plan format.

What would be best to do first? A streetcar line? Redo the Bus System? A light rail line from the west bank to the fine tube site?

How should transit improvements be funded?

Basically anything that has to do with improving transit in Tulsa, let's talk about it.

[LandArchPoke]

Here is an interesting case study, and I will try to do a few to help see what other cities have done that we can learn from. I won't give away the name of the city yet, but it is a city with a similar culture to American cities, this country even has a "___ Dream" statement very similar to the "American Dream"

It also has a similar population size, density, and land area to what Metro Tulsa has, but look how different the downtown core is because of it's transit system.

Bird's Eye View



Aerial View



Some Street Views













It has Target, A 2 block long pedestrian shopping mall and other things that help to add to a pretty impressive downtown atmosphere for the size of the city. It has one main street car line and several high capacity commuter rail lines.

[jacobi]

Adelaide, Australia

Next assignment.

[TheArtist]

  One thing I will note is that they sure didn't have to recently fix about 60 or so ugly bridges at great expense.  Nice little green belt too which can go a long way to helping to concentrate a core over time.  Those two things and some others in the pics tell me that the people there seem to be more civil and civilized than most US cities (very little litter, trash boxes tidily laid out by the curb and not "kicked over", trash cans whith wheels no less, left out in a public space, crowds of people patiently waiting at crosswalks, school children wearing uniforms and not behaving like a gang of ruffians, etc.  I will even go out on a limb and say that their crime rate is a lot lower than Tulsa's (which isn't that exceptional actually) or most US cities for that matter.  

But back to transit lol.  

My saying is... "Pedestrian Friendly and Transit Friendly are the same thing."  two sides of the same coin.  


And, not to pick on you for most seem to do it, but when you listed suggestions for things we could do and what to perhaps do first, not a one of them pertained to the pedestrian.  That aggrivates the heck out of me.  I get it over and over and over again when I talk with city officials or those in charge of "transit".  They start talking about bus routes, timing/frequency, number of busses and routes, financing and funding, etc.  You can talk about that stuff until you are blue in the face and not be able to fix the problem until you also, at the same time, talk about the pedestrian experience and what needs to be done there.

Transit Friendly and Pedestrian Friendly, you CAN NOT separate the two, and it hurts our city, its people and finances, when we do.

New clinic going in right in the heart of Whittier Square, not pedestrian friendly.  Thats an area that had the potential to be a pedestrian friendly hub.  An area that the city has spent a lot of time and money trying to revitalize and clean up.  And then they approve sh@t that will make our transit more expensive and less effective? Really?

North Tulsa, think of all the new developments that the city has pushed for, helped finance, gotten federal and state dollars for.  Think of all the people in those areas who really could use effective transit. Why can't the officials in our city get it in their beady heads that Pedestrian Friendly development will also be Transit Friendly (aka. make it easier for people to use transit and also make it more cost effective for the city to fund transit)?  Zoning codes or not, the people who approved and pushed for all that stuff at Pine and Peoria should have known to push it up to the sidewalks and not have parking lots in front of it.  Same with all the new health clinics that have various funding sources.  Those could have been the start of a pedestrian zone along those streets.  Not a pedestrian barrier and thus adding to the cost and lack of efficiency of our transit.          

[TheTed]

Fully agree, Artist.

I love to take transit when I travel. But the lack of pedestrian friendliness makes me avoid the light rail in Dallas. You can take the train to within walking distance of the North Park Mall, but then you have several blocks of walking across busy streets, an expressway and giant mall parking lots.

I've experienced the same thing with other destinations in that city that are less than a mile from a rail stop. It does no good having transit if that walk is extremely unpleasant.

In fact, I'm not really sure why that rail system is even touted as a success. It seems to be one giant park and ride for suburban dwellers.

And we seem to take all our cues from OKC and Texas, so I really hope we look around at places that actually do transit well.

[custosnox]

Adelaide, Australia has a slightly lower density than Tulsa, actually.  But it does have three times the population, which makes a big difference.  It's also almost 4 times as big in area.  It doesn't make a very good comparison, IMO. 

Like Artist said, we need a pedestrian friendly city for transit to work.  What everyone seems to forget is when you take transit, it doesn't drop you at the front door of where you are going, you have to walk it.  With the way this city is set up, there are few places in it that walking a block or more just seems to be a task more than anything.

[Townsend]

What everyone seems to forget is when you take transit, it doesn't drop you at the front door of where you are going, you have to walk it.  With the way this city is set up, there are few places in it that walking a block or more just seems to be a task more than anything.

It's even easier in downtown Tulsa because you can cut through all the parking lots.  No buildings to bother you.

[custosnox]

It's even easier in downtown Tulsa because you can cut through all the parking lots.  No buildings to bother you.

in the same state where people circle the walmart parking lot for 20 minutes just to get a spot 20 feet closer

[Red Arrow]

in the same state where people circle the walmart parking lot for 20 minutes just to get a spot 20 feet closer

Just one more reason I hate being forced to the store front as at Tulsa Hills.  Give me a path for my car away from them and pedestrians.  It would be good for the environment since fewer cars would be sitting idling.

[LandArchPoke]

Adelaide, Australia has a slightly lower density than Tulsa, actually.  But it does have three times the population, which makes a big difference.  It's also almost 4 times as big in area.  It doesn't make a very good comparison, IMO. 

Like Artist said, we need a pedestrian friendly city for transit to work.  What everyone seems to forget is when you take transit, it doesn't drop you at the front door of where you are going, you have to walk it.  With the way this city is set up, there are few places in it that walking a block or more just seems to be a task more than anything.

Actually Adelaide, AU has a population of about 1.2 Million and that's the metro area so yes the total city population is much larger than just Tulsa but comparing the metro areas they are pretty similar, and Adelaide has a lower but similar population density to Tulsa as well. So it's a reasonable comparison.

Artist my list that I said at the beginning wasn't in anyway what I was actually advocating for Tulsa to do. It was simply a list of a couple things I've heard officials and people say should be done. I am very much in agreement with you on the pedestrian environment and how that effects transit. That really is the factor that plays so much into why American transit systems are such failures. It seems during the construction phase of systems such as Dallas that do not want to put the extra money into connecting that actually stations in a friendly manor to surrounding developments.

When I heard the new planning director actually had her undergrad in Landscape Architecture (which is what mine is in as well) I am hopeful she has been keeping up to date what ASLA (American Society of Landscape Architects) has been advocating so hard for in Washington, and that is Complete Streets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_streets    just in case anyone isn't familiar with this, but it's something they are trying very hard for. It's also something that in my opinion is greatly over looked when American city planners are working on plans. From traveling abroad most countries like Australia and Canada, very much similar to American cities and car cultures, have such vastly different transit efficiencies than we do.

[custosnox]

Actually Adelaide, AU has a population of about 1.2 Million and that's the metro area so yes the total city population is much larger than just Tulsa but comparing the metro areas they are pretty similar, and Adelaide has a lower but similar population density to Tulsa as well. So it's a reasonable comparison.

I'm not sure how to even compare a metro and a city like that, and don't know if there are suburbs to Adelaide (though I'm not finding anything saying there is). 

[LandArchPoke]

I'm not sure how to even compare a metro and a city like that, and don't know if there are suburbs to Adelaide (though I'm not finding anything saying there is).  

From everything I've found Adelaide is basically like Indianapolis where there isn't really suburbs, it's all the main city... so when comparing Tulsa you have to compare the metro population (950,000-1 Million) to Adelaide's city population (around 1.2 Million or so)

So in reality the population is not that much different.

Edit-

Just for reference as well, the population of the entire South Australia state is about 1.64 Million

[Townsend]

From everything I've found Adelaide is basically like Indianapolis where there isn't really suburbs, it's all the main city... so when comparing Tulsa you have to compare the metro population (950,000-1 Million) to Adelaide's city population (around 1.2 Million or so)

So in reality the population is not that much different.

Edit-

Just for reference as well, the population of the entire South Australia state is about 1.64 Million

So shouldn't we look at several different city centers when looking at Tulsa Metro as compared to one city center when looking at Adelaide?

[LandArchPoke]

So shouldn't we look at several different city centers when looking at Tulsa Metro as compared to one city center when looking at Adelaide?

Sorry but I don't think I understand your question, but I'll try.

Adelaide still has multiple centers throughout the cities, such as Tulsa... but with Tulsa they just happen to be called Downtown BA, Downtown Owasso, Woodland Hills, and so on. Adelaide just happens to connect these centers with high capacity commuter rail with higher frequencies, similar to what you see ran in Chicago or northeastern cities.

Basically if you took all the different municipalities (imaginary borders) and made them one in Tulsa, the city of Tulsa would have a population of about a million. Adelaide still has the different city centers, just without the imaginary borders that we have here in Tulsa. Granted the fact we do have the metro area here broken into different cities does make transit more difficult to plan, finance, and build then say Adelaide but that a whole different area.

With the pictures I showed my main point was to show how vastly different the downtown core can be with proper walkability and transit options in a population area the same size as the Tulsa metro. 

And also as a point that a lot of people say that transit isn't ready to be built in Tulsa is false. I think the planning process we are in is very important but we need to act on it very soon once we have the right plan of action and not wait 10 years and let other cities pass us by.

Oklahoma City, Albuquerque, Tuscon, and more are all in the process of building streetcar lines.

[dbacks fan]

Tucson has been doing major redevelopment of downtown since '07 and are in the process of widening I-10 as it cuts through Tucson as well. Tucsons advantage over Tulsa is a major university, UofA, and a large employer, Davis Monathon AFB, and is a major tourism spot in AZ as well. Plus like Phoenix, their light rail, street car and transportation upgrade was voted on and passed by the citizens.

As for the comparison to Adelaide, it is a major rail and sea port for that part of Austraila and has had rail service based on European rail since the late 1800's.