How will this affect Tulsa?

[Conan71]

AA hardly provides slave wages.

[AquaMan]

AA hardly provides slave wages.

True enough. And I agree with you that the reality is, AA creates many jobs and losing them creates a huge ripple effect. In fact, I agree that we should do what we feasibly can to keep them here. I just wonder what those who have criticized bailouts now think since it hits home. They will now have their convictions tested.

But what H says has merit. We simply must face the reality that America's free market capitalist system, is a myth and has been for at least a century. Our economic growth has been fueled by industrialism, population growth, war, infrastructure and military spending since the turn of the 20th century. Now that the baby boom is slipping into its last quarter century and industrialism has come and gone, we have to figure out a new model.

[Red Arrow]

Now that the baby boom is slipping into its last quarter century and industrialism has come and gone, we have to figure out a new model.

Any actual suggestions?  It might warrant a new thread.

[Teatownclown]

No socialists today? 

[AquaMan]

Any actual suggestions?  It might warrant a new thread.

I wish I were that smart. Surely there are others who have considered these factors and created a way to mesh our love of democracy, capitalism, near-socialism and technology into some kind of sound economic plan. It sure isn't going to come from the ranks of politicians.

[dbacks fan]

WWRPD? He'd let it fail since the gov't shouldn't bail out businesses.

[we vs us]

WWRPD? He'd let it fail since the gov't shouldn't bail out businesses.

WWRPDTDWTFOHC?

What Would Ron Paul Do To Deal With The Fallout Of His Convictions? 

'Cause the fallout would be:  Tulsa loses 10k high-paying jobs.

[TheArtist]

Any actual suggestions?  It might warrant a new thread.

Work smarter.

Someone needs to tell those pesky Germans that manufacturing jobs are a no go cause they apparently haven't got the message.  Their exports keep expanding and unempmloyment rate keeps dropping,,, the dummies.

Was listening to something on the radio other day where they were talking about, I believe it might have been South Korea, describing how the whole nation virtually comes to a standstill when its time for their students to take their tests.  People line the roads to cheer the students as they head in to class, then silence. Honking is forbidden that day for fear of bothering the students while taking their tests, teachers wear soft soled shoes, planes are not allowed to fly, etc.   All that "creating a culture where people value education" is a crock of bull if you ask me.  Someone needs them that.

[heironymouspasparagus]

AA hardly provides slave wages.

I had expanded to the 10,000 foot view... (try to keep up!!  LOL!)


AA has been good for Tulsa for a long time.  Now, we are suffering - as are the people working there - from the results of a long line of incompetent management.  Couple of people I know who work there wish that Crandall was back.  Apparently he was consulted - asked to come fix things - and one of his ideas was to fire all of the top management.  Needless to say he is not back as CEO.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Any actual suggestions?  It might warrant a new thread.

Yeah...first stop electing people that are in place now.  Then quit electing people who are members of either of the two major political parties today.

Now on to reality...

How to get to a steady state economic model?  Very tough to change to that from what we have without a couple of things - all of which include massive dislocation.  Much more expensive energy.  Much more expensive food costs.  Much smaller population.  All extremely unpalatable.

Economic policy based on war is good place to start to stop.
Less imperialistic voyeurism (part two of the economic policy point).

The problem is that when you have people who can vote themselves a paycheck from the treasury - like we do with Congress and Corporate America right now, it is tough to dislodge them.  'Cause they just write the laws that perpetuate themselves - again, like we have right now.

Massive worldwide economic total collapse might 'clear out the cobwebs' somewhat, but more likely to create a 'dark ages' kind of scenario, setting civilization back 400 years yet again.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Work smarter.

Someone needs to tell those pesky Germans that manufacturing jobs are a no go cause they apparently haven't got the message.  Their exports keep expanding and unempmloyment rate keeps dropping,,, the dummies.

Was listening to something on the radio other day where they were talking about, I believe it might have been South Korea, describing how the whole nation virtually comes to a standstill when its time for their students to take their tests.  People line the roads to cheer the students as they head in to class, then silence. Honking is forbidden that day for fear of bothering the students while taking their tests, teachers wear soft soled shoes, planes are not allowed to fly, etc.   All that "creating a culture where people value education" is a crock of bull if you ask me.  Someone needs them that.

Still talking the economic growth/expansion model.  Think steady state - no big increases year to year.

[Ed W]

I wonder how Ed W would feel about a call center job?

It would be one small step above being a greeter at W@lM@rt!  A very small step.  But I did a turn as a sewer inspector once, and after that everything is a step up.

I can give you the view from the trenches, but in all honesty, you'll probably hear of any changes just before I do.  I think there are three possible outcomes: We remain AA employees with probably losses of wages and benefits, the maintenance base is sold to another company and we get to re-apply for our jobs (like Spirit Aerospace, for instance), or all the work is outsourced and we all lose our jobs.  Obviously, while one and two aren't especially palatable, they're still preferable to the last one.  There's a possibility of a take over because any kid with a paper route could buy up the stock right now, but the debts are about equal to assets. 

From a personal view point, I'm probably a bit better positioned than some of my co-workers.  I just turned 60 so I'm eligible for retirement, though I'm not ready to do that yet.  The PBGC guarantees retirement pay up to about $50K, and mine wouldn't be that high.  But the medical is most worrisome. She-Who-etc is younger than me and in poor health, so she's my first concern.

But the people in their late 40s or early 50s are between a rock and a hard place.  Most employers hesitate to hire them and given the skill sets of aircraft tech, there could be a glut on the market.  If they stay at AA, they won't accrue any more retirement money, leaving them at the mercy of inflation.

I could take the retirement then look for another job to fill in the gap, and that may yet happen.  I've been looking into writing opportunities that could bring in some extra cash too.  One of them opened up a position for a tech writer recently.  It pays well and I could do most of the work from home or the library.   

The rumors were flying when this story first broke.  Some of it was speculative, some was just hateful as some co-workers tried to use the tension to goad others.  There's been an outbreak of black humor that helps relieve that tension, though it's bound to ratchet upward whenever AA has to meet with the bankruptcy judge.  Eventually they'll reveal our fate.  The waiting is hard.

If anyone has a specific question, I'll try to answer it, though the official corporatespeak line is to refer everything to their officiAAl compAAny spokesmAAn.  I can provide the limited view from the trenches. 

[Teatownclown]

Thanks EW and our thoughts are with all the hard working Union peeps at AA who have been and will remain Tulsa's greatest working asset.

I'm thinking option 3 is out....too much talent and good clean assets for this to take place.

I always try to remember, in deals that go down and life in general, that anything that comes to you should be received as a gift from providence. In my life, the dark negatives sometimes swing open a new entrance into a better world.

It's the American employees that have sacrificed the most over the years and this clown recklessly took  shots at the politicians....

[AquaMan]

Work smarter.

Someone needs to tell those pesky Germans that manufacturing jobs are a no go cause they apparently haven't got the message.  Their exports keep expanding and unempmloyment rate keeps dropping,,, the dummies.

Was listening to something on the radio other day where they were talking about, I believe it might have been South Korea, describing how the whole nation virtually comes to a standstill when its time for their students to take their tests.  People line the roads to cheer the students as they head in to class, then silence. Honking is forbidden that day for fear of bothering the students while taking their tests, teachers wear soft soled shoes, planes are not allowed to fly, etc.   All that "creating a culture where people value education" is a crock of bull if you ask me.  Someone needs them that.

I guess you're being sarcastic.

Germany has a younger population IIRC. Also a smaller, smarter, more homogeneous population (they are practically all of Germanic descent) living on a smaller land mass with a more socialistic political bent. They also have a heritage of fine craftsmanship. So, are you saying we need to edit and decrease our population, increase our science and technical skills through better education ala South Korea? (Who also has a smaller, more homogeneous population, smaller land mass, and a more socialistic political bent).

Or did I miss something?

[AquaMan]

Still talking the economic growth/expansion model.  Think steady state - no big increases year to year.

Unless the next generations drastically increase their birth rates this steady state model will occur on its own. Unfortunately it will take a quarter century or more to stabilize and it will be painful as we have to accept a 30's era depression outlook on our potential. The choice will be that we accept that we no longer can make this model work or we choose one of the crucial criteria it requires (war, immigration, infrastructure) and pursue it blindly.