Make or Break Time for the Middle Class says Obama

[heironymouspasparagus]

Natural gas will either go back to not available or become really expensive.  It has something to do with fracking.

Wanna prediction?  Gonna get it anyway.

Advanced recovery techniques are going to have a huge impact on the Ogallala water supply.  The one that makes the breadbasket of the world possible.  And they won't be good impacts.


Not to mention the increase in earthquakes here in the midsection.

And on an even grander scale - our way of life as we know it will not continue for the "hundreds" of years the oil/gas is supposed to last.  And even if we do switch to massive solar farms, the shading of the earth will cause some effect (cooling?  warming?) that may well (probably will) have some adverse consequence.

And wind power, if it gets to the point of utilization on a truly massive scale, will divert/convert energy that currently performs some work in another area of the biosphere.  Weather?  Maybe it could get to the point of affecting the rotational speed of the planet over a period of time - who knows?  We don't.

And we will rush headlong into whatever it is without due consideration, or even a casual thought toward possible effects.  We already are doing so.  We will be changing our life style, though.  Just how much and how fast are the only questions.

[Red Arrow]

Wanna prediction?  Gonna get it anyway.

You chose curtain #2, expensive.  (As I expect we all will.)

[Red Arrow]

The alternatives have ALWAYS been advocated, advanced and recommended as alternatives to relieve the use of other forms of energy in the specific areas where they make sense.  If you make 20% of your electricity with solar, and another 20% with wind, that means there are 40% fewer coal plants or nukes or even gas fired plants required. 

We need an efficient way to store the "electricity" so when the wind is insufficient or it's night time we still have electricity.  Large power plants don't come on line instantly.

[Red Arrow]

Exactly.  Just like marijuana/hemp, but half as much for the same price.

Until the price of getting busted is included.

[Red Arrow]

And we will rush headlong into whatever it is without due consideration, or even a casual thought toward possible effects.  We already are doing so.  We will be changing our life style, though.  Just how much and how fast are the only questions.

There are no side effects from green energy programs.  That's why they are called green.  I am surprised you didn't know that.

[heironymouspasparagus]

There are no side effects from green energy programs.  That's why they are called green.  I am surprised you didn't know that.

Fewer (slightly) and different.  But still there.

[nathanm]

Actually, it probably would be a good idea if you knew more about the topic before trying to come off as an expert on the topic.  Everyone here  appreciates you are apparently very-well read and know a little about a lot of different things.  This being another that you know a little about.  Ahem.

Why would oil execs care about eROI? They (should) care about ROI in dollars; that is their job after all. It's up to the rest of us to stop them from doing something utterly stupid if their plans have a detrimental impact on the bigger picture. I guess where we differ is that I think that capitalism is a great engine for growth and economic development but think it needs outside influence to not overproduce, overconsume, and over-everything else. You seem to subscribe to the theory that whatever makes the most money is what we should be doing. If that captured the external costs of industrial operations, that would be a perfectly reasonable position.

Anyway, "this valve goes to that pipe" isn't necessary for me to know to look at eROI numbers and declare that one of these technologies is not as good as the others. Sorry you think that technical detail is necessary for me to know to make a comment on the efficiency of the process.

[Gaspar]

Sorry you think that technical detail is necessary for me to know to make a comment on the efficiency of the process.

On the contrary, we enjoy when you share your expertise on stuff you don't know about.

[nathanm]

On the contrary, we enjoy when you share your expertise on stuff you don't know about.

Yeah, that's not what happened. I never claimed to know the ins and outs of the process, only the basic steps and the eROI calculated by people who do know the process intimately. You seem to have a real problem with the truth the past couple of days? I know a great doctor who can probably help with that, would you like a referral?

[Gaspar]

Yeah, that's not what happened. I never claimed to know the ins and outs of the process, only the basic steps and the eROI calculated by people who do know the process intimately. You seem to have a real problem with the truth the past couple of days? I know a great doctor who can probably help with that, would you like a referral?

Boy, you've really got me confused now.  I thought when you said:

No, I'm stating outright that it takes nearly as much energy to extract the oil from the tar sands as we get from the oil when we burn it.

that you were making an outright statement that the process costs more than the product yields. I can't imagine where I got that idea.  My apologies.

I also thought you must be an expert on the productivity of light crude because of your proclamation:

Using it for fuel is beyond stupid. It's much more useful as raw materials to be turned into fertilizer and plastic. Moreover, despite the enormous volume of recoverable oil, it can't be recovered quickly enough to make up for the declines in existing oil fields.

hey, it's obviously my bad, for assuming you were speaking from a point of experience or expertise. 

Thanks for clarifying, I now understand that your argument was a reactive one, not intended to be a point of debate or analysis.  I am sorry if I made it such.

Does your doctor treat anger issues?

[nathanm]

Boy, you've really got me confused now.  I thought when you said:
that you were making an outright statement that the process costs more than the product yields. I can't imagine where I got that idea.  My apologies.

I also thought you must be an expert on the productivity of light crude because of your proclamation:
hey, it's obviously my bad, for assuming you were speaking from a point of experience or expertise. 

Thanks for clarifying, I now understand that your argument was a reactive one, not intended to be a point of debate or analysis.  I am sorry if I made it such.

Does your doctor treat anger issues?

Yes, in the context of 20-40 units of energy extracted for one unit of energy expended, like we get for straw-in-the-ground oil (depending on distance from source to market) 6 units for 1 unit is not much above break-even. This is true. I do not have to personally be an expert to assert a quantity that has been measured by people who are experts.

[TulsaRufnex]

Whoa there.  Not sure where you're getting the superFAIL out of this.  Obama's not done everything I'd like and has missed some opportunities but that's a far far cry from him being a danger to the Republic.  I want to re-elect the guy because he generally shares my concerns and political bent (generally) and the alternative -- whether Romney or Gingrich -- actually will be a danger to the Republic.  

How can you gloss over the ramifications of electing a Republican president at this point?  No matter who gets the primary nod, the core crazies in the GOP will push for policies that roll back our safety nets, will at best enshrine the current economic inequality as a normal state of affairs and at worst speed it up exponentially in a futile attempt to prove to the "job creators" just how much we'll be willing to give away if they'd just start hiring.  Whatever austerity measures they'll be able to cobble together will undoubtedly impoverish more seniors, more of the unemployed, more of the ill and/or crazy, more immigrants, and more of the working poor.  They will also be unable or unwilling to fund our crumbling infrastructure, any sort of education reform, and will entirely roll back Obamacare which -- irony of ironies -- will increase our projected budget deficit by tens of $B's.  

If there's one thing I trust in our politics, it's that the current GOP will absolutely try to get everything on their platform passed and will succeed on doing a lot of those things.  If they do one thing well, it's execute.  The sad fact is that most of those things will dismantle what's left of our country as we know it.  

You're surprised at the reactions you get from a guy who has been virulently anti-Obama from Day One?

If Hillary Clinton had been elected, Conan would be just as anti-Hillary.... so if we had passed HillaryCare, but due to political compromise, the legislation was missing an individual mandate, this same guy (and his political party) would be dominating media coverage and crowing daily about all those "freeloaders" who should be required to carry health insurance...  that's right, and if the passage of ObamaCare didn't contain a requirement to purchased health insurance (the view originally espoused by candidate Obama), these same Republicans would by acclamation solidly support the very same individual  mandate they currently vilify....

But hey, Conan was very supportive of that "Subsidies of the rich and famous" report from Obama, right?
Oh wait.... that was Sen Coburn who wrote it, so it's okay.... but if Obama or any democrat says it, it's "class warfare."

Anyone who supports a tax system that is in any way progressive or based on "ability to pay" is characterized as engaging in "class warfare" against the "job creators"...... and 46.2 million Americans living below the poverty line I suppose are a buncha freeloaders who need to "take a shower and get a job".... all the while we don't hear a peep from our supposedly "liberal mainstream media" about regressive sales taxes on groceries, a payroll tax system that has a 2.5 trillion dollar surplus for social security, and a reasonable and popular medicare/medicaid system that keeps a record percentage of our senior citizens out of poverty.  

Geez.

Of course, Conan can then rail against the OWS "entitlement" generation..... when my experience over the course of decades proves to me that the most "entitled" of economic classes in this country are the tribe of people who routinely characterize themselves as "middle class" or "upper middle class" yet make well over double or triple the median household income in this country.... geez, when did claiming you're in the middle class become the equivalent of saying you live in "midtown Tulsa"....?

Go figure.

[Conan71]

You're surprised at the reactions you get from a guy who has been virulently anti-Obama from Day One?

If Hillary Clinton had been elected, Conan would be just as anti-Hillary.... so if we had passed HillaryCare, but due to political compromise, the legislation was missing an individual mandate, this same guy (and his political party) would be dominating media coverage and crowing daily about all those "freeloaders" who should be required to carry health insurance...  that's right, and if the passage of ObamaCare didn't contain a requirement to purchased health insurance (the view originally espoused by candidate Obama), these same Republicans would by acclamation solidly support the very same individual  mandate they currently vilify....

But hey, Conan was very supportive of that "Subsidies of the rich and famous" report from Obama, right?
Oh wait.... that was Sen Coburn who wrote it, so it's okay.... but if Obama or any democrat says it, it's "class warfare."

Anyone who supports a tax system that is in any way progressive or based on "ability to pay" is characterized as engaging in "class warfare" against the "job creators"...... and 46.2 million Americans living below the poverty line I suppose are a buncha freeloaders who need to "take a shower and get a job".... all the while we don't hear a peep from our supposedly "liberal mainstream media" about regressive sales taxes on groceries, a payroll tax system that has a 2.5 trillion dollar surplus for social security, and a reasonable and popular medicare/medicaid system that keeps a record percentage of our senior citizens out of poverty.  

Geez.

Of course, Conan can then rail against the OWS "entitlement" generation..... when my experience over the course of decades proves to me that the most "entitled" of economic classes in this country are the tribe of people who routinely characterize themselves as "middle class" or "upper middle class" yet make well over double or triple the median household income in this country.... geez, when did claiming you're in the middle class become the equivalent of saying you live in "midtown Tulsa"....?

Go figure.

Your obsession with me is a little creepy as well as completely making up a belief system for me.  You also left out the salient points that I'm a LIAR! and a partisan hack, that's disappointing.  Those are always two of my favorites.  You also left out the points that you supported Obama ever since you used to ride the subways in Chicago.  I'm worried about you in your advancing age you might be losing your edge.

Merry Christmas anyway 

[Conan71]

On the contrary, we enjoy when you share your expertise on stuff you don't know about.

[nathanm]

That would have been a funny picture if I had been doing what he claims I was.