"The Pearl" an area that will go down in History as a turning point in Tulsa

[TulsaRufnex]

You mean east?

The area to the north is because they are building a new large retention pond in that area (like the existing one, but more square)

The area to the east is to make all of that property development material as opposed to highlighting a few property owners. Many of those properties in the planned are owned by people who WANT to develop under this code.

Yes.  East is what I meant.  Fixed my post.
I've seen the plans for the retention pond, but understand why business owners north or directly south of the railroad tracks would be worried about how the code could affect what they've had in place for decades.
The question I have is how many of the properties east of 6th & Rockford (or Quincy, for that matter) are owned by people who WANT to develop under this code and how long have they owned the properties?  I'd tend to give more creedence to the views of a business owner who's been there for decades over a trust-fund baby or slumlord or speculator...

[TulsaRufnex]

Ok, you do realize that someday and likely within my lifetime, even with Tulsa being a slow growing city, most of the area within the IDL and the Pearl District area all the way to Cherry Street, and more, will be "infilled" with higher density developments.  Unless Tulsa just doesn't grow at all.  What we are talking about is the form that development will take.  I do agree that "the art of the possible" should be the main consideration at this point.  "Perfection" was tried, and tried and tried and at this point, one can see that some leeway, in order to make some positive progress, might be warranted.  I personally would be happy with just allowing mixed use developments outside the IDL, not having them be illegal, for starters.  I would then also like to see certain areas where it's "logical" to begin pedestrian/transit friendly developments begin have even just a couple of rules such as 1. Built up to the sidewalk and 2. Have pedestrian friendly frontages on that sidewalk side.   Height, materials, etc. not a big concern for me.    

I realize that nobody can predict the future... if twenty years ago, in 1993, I'd been asked which is more likely:  Tulsa gets a Major League Soccer team or OKC gets an NBA team, I'd have bet on the former to "likely" happen, and the latter to have a snowball's chance in hell.

Back in 1993, I wouldn't have guessed that from 2000 - 2010, Rogers and Cherokee counties would be the fastest growing in northeast Oklahoma, while the city of Tulsa shrank.
I also wouldn't have guessed that KFF would pour $100mil into a park on Riverside, but hey, maybe Brookside will resemble north Dallas within my lifetime... and then we can start buying "Keep Brookside Pretentious" tshirts...  

I do believe that the best way for Tulsa to compete with its suburbs is to offer pedestrian-friendly developments not found in Broken Arrow, Owasso or Claremore.  However, since most Tulsans will still be car-dependent for the foreseeable future, I don't see inherent conflict between a few blocks of pedestrian-friendly development down the street from a car-friendly Sonic or QuikTrip and/or a new downtown Walmart Neighborhood Market next door to the Home Depot... I believe if you're trying to cater to the often fickle tastes of twentysomethings born between 1983 and 1993, it'd be naive to think that the IDL or the new-and-improved Pearl District should be zoned to achieve the same urban density those areas had in the 1950s...  

[TulsaRufnex]

I am not a huge soccer honk, but I like the thought of that.

Well, at the risk of sounding like a broken record (too late!)... I continue to think "best use" of the "superblock" off 4th St between Franklin and Kenosha would be another entertainment facility/stadium that could connect/anchor the Blue Dome and East End to The Pearl... I don't have a problem with an access road to nowhere like Lansing Ave from 3rd to 6th actually being used for parking (even if it's only *gasp* surface parking)... I mean, who wants to build condos or pedestrian friendly buildings literally across the street from the IDL?  And why would Tulsa need a park in that area, when Centennial Park is so close?  I believe TulsaNow posters would do an about-face if it was Victory deciding to build a church downtown rather than All Souls...

REALITY CHECK:  Unless George Kaiser suddenly becomes a big fan of Major League Soccer, the prospects of building a 22,500-seat soccer specific stadium makes little sense for the foreseeable future... however, a smaller facility with a 5k - 10k capacity and a stage on one end, could be used for NASL soccer, high school football, concerts, graduations, etc etc... compare that to the new ballpark which is rarely used for anything other than baseball due to 70 home dates.  The "soccer-specific" facility I described would likely be used for 15-20 home dates for soccer, which would necessitate it be "multi-use" by design and due to economic necessity... if it makes more sense to payoff all the Pearl District businesses opposing form-based development and have them move to those desolate blocks of Nordham-nothingness on Kenosha, Lansing, etc, then maybe it'd make sense to bulldoze rental blight and construct a facility inside The Pearl...

If you didn't notice, when it comes to downtown development, I'm more of a fan of a pedestrian-friendly stadium... as a kid, I would never have known much about Florence Park or Renaissance areas if it hadn't been for all those TU games (and Roughnecks' games) at Skelly Stadium.  IMO, if a stadium is proposed for the West Bank off Jackson or the Evans Fintube site, it is no longer conducive to pedestrian activity and may as well be built in Broken Arrow or Jenks....

/end rant

Sounds like a job for a trolley!

I wish those Nightline mini-buses ran every 15-30 mins at night and didn't go 'round in circles....
Also wish we had this stopping in downtown... http://us.megabus.com/  ...there are stops in Norman and OKC, then it skips Tulsa to go to Springfield...

...or maybe Michael Bates can start a Jitney service....

...I, however, am partial to the "beer bus" concept...  

[sgrizzle]

Every time bus rapid transit comes up, this is the first thing that pops into my head



Although I may be the only person who saw that movie.

[heironymouspasparagus]

OKC is looking at losing the Red Hawks as the Houston affiliate in about a year and a half.  Then what are they gonna do with their big new stadium...??

Well, Mandalay (owner) probably won't move the team, they will most likely look for a new affiliate agreement.  And of course, they will need several tens of millions if not more - to "enable" the process and "refurbish" the facilities, since they are so run down by now....  Wanna bet on how big a "take" the Astros and Mandalay will get through this little ploy??

Cities "buying" sports is a sucker-bet....unless the city is gonna own it....

http://www.news9.com/story/21550755/redhawks-leaving-oklahoma-city

[Townsend]

Although I may be the only person who saw that movie.

You're not.  It was a Sunday, I was hungover, the remote was across the room.

[sgrizzle]

OKC is looking at losing the Red Hawks as the Houston affiliate in about a year and a half.  Then what are they gonna do with their big new stadium...??

Well, Mandalay (owner) probably won't move the team, they will most likely look for a new affiliate agreement.  And of course, they will need several tens of millions if not more - to "enable" the process and "refurbish" the facilities, since they are so run down by now....  Wanna bet on how big a "take" the Astros and Mandalay will get through this little ploy??

Cities "buying" sports is a sucker-bet....unless the city is gonna own it....

http://www.news9.com/story/21550755/redhawks-leaving-oklahoma-city

Wrong thread?

[dbacks fan]

Every time bus rapid transit comes up, this is the first thing that pops into my head



Although I may be the only person who saw that movie.

Only watched it once, that was all that I needed.

[Townsend]

Only watched it once, that was all that I needed.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Wrong thread?

Pretty much.  It was an extension of the posts RufNex was making about a soccer stadium not making sense unless someone like Kaiser would pay for it.  With the Red Hawks and OKC being placed in a situation at the 'far end' of that scenario - after the city paid big bucks for a stadium, even something really popular like baseball can have a hard time being justified for a city.  The Astros are starting the propaganda machine to get someone to give them more money.

I don't think the Red Hawks will disappear, but after spending big bucks, either the Astros or Mandalay will be back at the OKC trough. 

The Drillers have been pretty lucky in that their affiliation has really only changed once in "modern times" - last 35 years or so.  And 60 million was reasonable with the combination public/private financing.  Gotta wonder if the team owners will be coming to the trough?  Or "when"....

[nathanm]

I wish those Nightline mini-buses ran every 15-30 mins at night and didn't go 'round in circles....

I did not say bus or trolley bus. Tracks inspire investment, because they imply permanence. A bus with funny bodywork does not.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Love the bus!!  That's the kind of conversion bus I am looking for!!

Perhaps they were mildly inspired by GMC...with their Futurliner....

https://www.google.com/search?q=gmc+futurliner&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=WwG&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=rZs-UcbQBu2DyAGis4CAAQ&ved=0CDsQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=708

[Red Arrow]

Every time bus rapid transit comes up, this is the first thing that pops into my head



Although I may be the only person who saw that movie.

I didn't see the movie, at least I don't remember it.

Interesting concept.  Push the front with the trailer part on a vehicle which is not guided by rails.  I think it could lead to some interesting handling characteristics on slippery surfaces.

[TulsaRufnex]

Pretty much.  It was an extension of the posts RufNex was making about a soccer stadium not making sense unless someone like Kaiser would pay for it.  With the Red Hawks and OKC being placed in a situation at the 'far end' of that scenario - after the city paid big bucks for a stadium, even something really popular like baseball can have a hard time being justified for a city.  The Astros are starting the propaganda machine to get someone to give them more money.

I don't think the Red Hawks will disappear, but after spending big bucks, either the Astros or Mandalay will be back at the OKC trough.  

The Drillers have been pretty lucky in that their affiliation has really only changed once in "modern times" - last 35 years or so.  And 60 million was reasonable with the combination public/private financing.  Gotta wonder if the team owners will be coming to the trough?  Or "when"....

I meant to say that a 22,500 seat stadium for Major League Soccer (no matter how it's financed) wouldn't make sense unless George Kaiser could be convinced to be lead investor for the local MLS team's ownership group which would, in turn, guarantee Tulsa a team.
Or if Kaiser (or T Boone, for that matter) had a son who loved the sport... not unlike what Hank "Bush bailout" Paulson's son Merritt did in Portland...   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merritt_Paulson#Acquisition_of_the_Portland_Timbers_and_the_Portland_Beavers

Not that I thought (or currently think) that a publicly funded stadium would necessarily be a bad idea, in and of itself.
I mean, we seem to have lots of high school football stadiums in the city and suburbs...
As for the Redhawks, I've got plenty of opinions on that subject worthy of another thread in the Sports forum...

Meanwhile, back to The Pearl District...

I was responding to JCnOwasso about a variation on the soccer stadium idea... I wouldn't know the feasability for a particular location within The Pearl at this time, but knowing that Chapman Stadium wasn't always owned by TU and originally had a 14k capacity, and knowing that the "soccer-specific" stadium used by FC Dallas is actually owned by the City of Frisco and is also used by Frisco ISD for high school football... well...

IMHO, a 5k - 10k capacity "soccer-specific" stadium could be constructed with a stage at one end and also be able to accommodate high school football... it could be the home stadium for any two or three of these high schools... Rogers, Central, Edison, Hale... and as long as beer can be served at pro soccer games and outdoor concerts, I think it'd be a nice addition that could spur interest in the neighborhood...

I did not say bus or trolley bus. Tracks inspire investment, because they imply massive public subsidies. A bus with funny bodywork does not.

There.  Fixed your post.  

My little jab at Michael Bates was based on the Cato Institute's hatred of transit subsidies and fascination with jitneys... the jitney stuff can be found, I believe, six pages into the link below, on pg. 224....

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:Ga7il3bH-5QJ:www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj5n1/cj5n1-12.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjPAylogVEcqUuZUgjzF_Yx-k5xH4cPw62ZnTcqhktLMmcrCRmboObJGW-X6Iiv2bs9NnITe_sbxyQBJbQ3kNBYSnrJxoPA7uMtJKKHDW-sZFLcykrUMMmTCMvkKfL_fr634Qq-&sig=AHIEtbQ_LBA7MA-cWYiC29p-1MiUlVSplA

[JCnOwasso]

What they should do is get some groups together... TPS, private schools, TU and the city and work out some type of universal city stadium that could be used by many different groups of people.  For HS football they could have a game of the week that could either be public or private schools and hold play off games.  I am not sure what type of practice facilities TU has, but they could be involved to have some of thier practices there for both football and soccer.  Then there is a feasibility of a Soccer team since the stadium will have already been built.  It does not have to be 22,500, but I think something between14000 and 19500 could be reasonable.  You could also hold a TPS sponsored Marching band competitions (yeah, I went there) since that is a real big thing around here with Union, BA and Owasso.  And, a higher capacity outdoor location for concerts.  It would be a nice fit in the area, especially when you consider the possible expansion of the flood control stuff and the places that will be within a reasonable walking distance once everything is said and done.