The Death Penalty

[RecycleMichael]

Since it it the Christmas season and everybody is getting along so well (Santa is watching you know)...I thought I would bring up a topic that I just know everyone will agree upon. The Death Penalty. Should our government be allowed to kill people.

I was completely opposed to this most of my life. My reasons were many; possible innocence, sanctity of life, who are we to kill one another, etc. It was also a different time for America. We saw life and it's value differently. My freshman year (1972), the supreme Court suspended capitol punishment and the decision had widespread public support. Now, opinion polls show three fourths of Americans support the death penalty. Why did we change our attitudes so much?

For me, the day I flipped was the day of the OKC bombing. That was the day I wanted society to kill the guy who did it. He killed innocent children in a day care who were collateral damage in his obsession to punish government workers that he had never met. 

It took a monster to change what I believed about the issue. I have been pretty resolute since. This topic has come up in some other threads and I wondered if posters on TulsanNow could explain their positions. If we keep it on the topic (yeah, right), it could be insightful.

[Townsend]

I'm not a fan but I imagine I'd change my tune if I ever had a personal stake in the subject.

[AquaMan]

RM, that is an either/or proposition isn't it? Anyway, I still feel resolute that in 99% of the cases it is not defensible.

Part of that is a Christian belief that its immoral. If you believe that God is perfect, then he creates no junk. Everyone has purpose. It is a final judgement that we should not institutionalize.

Part of it is lack of faith that humanity possesses that same perfection. Think of all the people that DNA exonerated.  

Part of it is pragmatism. Just think had the Murrah bomber been allowed to age in prison, perhaps divulged more of his story, and eventually realized what he had done.

In cases where the evil is undeniable, unchanging and maybe even organic in nature, combined with overwhelming evidence of guilt with no remorse and fear of repetition (IOW, Charlie Manson), I could be persuaded. That is the 1%.

[Breadburner]

Should be given to anyone that sexually molest children.....

[Gaspar]

RM, that is an either/or proposition isn't it? Anyway, I still feel resolute that in 99% of the cases it is not defensible.

Part of that is a Christian belief that its immoral. If you believe that God is perfect, then he creates no junk. Everyone has purpose. It is a final judgement that we should not institutionalize.

Part of it is lack of faith that humanity possesses that same perfection. Think of all the people that DNA exonerated.  

Part of it is pragmatism. Just think had the Murrah bomber been allowed to age in prison, perhaps divulged more of his story, and eventually realized what he had done.

In cases where the evil is undeniable, unchanging and maybe even organic in nature, combined with overwhelming evidence of guilt with no remorse and fear of repetition (IOW, Charlie Manson), I could be persuaded. That is the 1%.

"Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man"

As for the religious aspect, it depends on what verses of the Bible you find convenient.  Over all, the Bible leans on the side of justice and that justice does include multiple instances and justifications for capital punishment.

From a non-religious standpoint, I think that if capital punishment functions as a deterrent, or as the only means in insuring that further crime is not committed by the same individual, than it is justified.  

Sadly, I don't believe that it serves as a deterrent any more.  Now that murders are allowed to spend decades on death row and millions of dollars in tax payer (the victim's money) filing appeals and clogging the courts.  Capital punishment has become an industry to feed lawyers, and the process so complex that in many cases we can't even do it right.

In the old days, if you killed a woman and raped her children, you were convicted and hung in public.  Your body was then laid in a pine box in front of the courthouse where people could spit on you, and 10 year old boys could shiver at the horror of being you.  Today, you go to prison, get three hot meals a day, cable television, a library, clean water and cloths, and free healthcare, and conjugal visits from women you meet on the internet.  If the state is lucky enough to get a death penalty conviction for you, you get a private cell, and 10-20 years to file appeals.

There are no 10 year old boys who judge their actions and choices based on the scoundrel they saw laid out in a pine box at the court house any more.  The death penalty no longer carries any deterrence, and serves only to canonize martyrs for movements.  

I offer no alternative.

[Red Arrow]

I believe there are cases where it is appropriate.  The evidence to convict must be overwhelming. What kind of case is subjective.  I believe that someone who goes on a murder spree would be an acceptable case.  Charlie Manson, Tim McVeigh, rooftop campus snipers, and the sort have no place in our society.  Fortunately the 911 guys mostly convicted themselves to death.  Someone who kills on the spur of the moment such as someone killing their spouse's lover should "just" get life in prison.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Since it it the Christmas season and everybody is getting along so well (Santa is watching you know)...I thought I would bring up a topic that I just know everyone will agree upon. The Death Penalty. Should our government be allowed to kill people.

I was completely opposed to this most of my life. My reasons were many; possible innocence, sanctity of life, who are we to kill one another, etc. It was also a different time for America. We saw life and it's value differently. My freshman year (1972), the supreme Court suspended capitol punishment and the decision had widespread public support. Now, opinion polls show three fourths of Americans support the death penalty. Why did we change our attitudes so much?

For me, the day I flipped was the day of the OKC bombing. That was the day I wanted society to kill the guy who did it. He killed innocent children in a day care who were collateral damage in his obsession to punish government workers that he had never met.  

It took a monster to change what I believed about the issue. I have been pretty resolute since. This topic has come up in some other threads and I wondered if posters on TulsanNow could explain their positions. If we keep it on the topic (yeah, right), it could be insightful.

Short answer; yes.  Can't spend the time to work on this right now, but we had friends working in the Southwestern Bell building who got banged up a little.  That was enough for me, even though they are fine now.  Killing kids - even if I don't know them - is WAY more than enough.  I even take that to people who abuse kids bad enough.  

Remember the old Pat Benatar lyric, "hell is for children".  Should not be that way, but too often it is.  And the Satanic Agents putting them there should be eliminated.  (In case you had not guessed, mistreatment of kids is a King-Dog sore point with me.)

[custosnox]

This is one of those topics where I conflict with myself on the matter.  To be honest, I can't say if I'm for or against it. 

[Gaspar]

This is one of those topics where I conflict with myself on the matter.  To be honest, I can't say if I'm for or against it. 

I think that this is an issue that most good people have to wrestle with. Ultimately you want justice, but what is the cost of that justice?

[rdj]

I was 100% death penalty until the day I had to take an oath and testify in court knowing I would send a man to his death while his mother and the mother of his victim looked on sobbing.  Who was the killer on that day?  Is that a pain that I & those innocent mothers should have to shoulder because he chose to pull a trigger?  No, and I do not anticipate his eventual death at the hand of the executioner will provide any salve for my wounds from that fateful day.

We live in a broken world that can never be made whole.  This event is what led to my desire to work at revitalizing the poverty stricken parts of our community and provide any tape to the cracked and fractures place we live.

However, the conditions in which our inmates, death row or not, enjoy should be greatly reconsidered.

[we vs us]

We live in a broken world that can never be made whole. 

Truth.

[Ed W]

I'm not a fan but I imagine I'd change my tune if I ever had a personal stake in the subject.

I have the same conflict.  It's easier to think of the death penalty when it's in the abstract, but up close and personal it's entirely different. 

Still, the thought of spending a lifetime inside a 6x9 concrete cell in a supermax prison is a special form of hell.  The window is set high in the wall so there's no view of the outside.  The door is solid and the cast concrete walls are nearly soundproof.  The isolation produces madness.

Given that, death may be less cruel.

[nathanm]

I'm not a fan but I imagine I'd change my tune if I ever had a personal stake in the subject.

+1, but I hope society would not let my desire for revenge guide public policy. People have been wrongly convicted, despite the evidence seeming to be top-notch at the time.

Gaspar, in the old days, the hangings didn't seem to do much to discourage murder. Unfortunately, good crime statistics are hard to come by from that era.

[Teatownclown]

Every time government puts a person down all our hands participate.

If you are for the death penalty, as ZYX sez: "what a disgusting person you are." Of course, that was a discussion on abortion. Same diff...

[heironymouspasparagus]

I am absolutely for the death penalty.  I would even extend it further - like the meth manufacturer I mentioned elsewhere.  It is an absolutely certain way to assure the person won't repeat the act on this earth.  A glib answer would be that, since it is NOT our place to judge - God reserves that to Himself - I submit we should make the introduction.

Having said that, I would also submit that we place a moratorium on execution for some period of time.  Perhaps even several years.  Especially in the states with the worst record of killing people when they have been shown to be innocent of the crime they are executed for.  Like Texas.  And Ohio.

Rick Perry in particular should be banned for life from ever allowing an execution, since he is the one who went ahead and killed a guy who was shown through DNA NOT to have been present at the crime.

When we clean up our act on making sure it is justified and the guilty convicted legally (remember the Oklahoma Medical Examiners office?), then yeah, let the killing begin.  For the people who do things to children, I will provide the service if needed.