Wish list for downtown...

[AquaMan]

I made this post in a topic on parking garages and I liked it so much I thought I would start a thread to use it. How's that for ego? Anyway, it seems that the area really is active yet still unfinished. Yet, I think its still missing a key ingredient. Anyone else find some parts missing?

Downtown is great. I love it. IMO, it still suffers from fragmentation and lack of a central identifying attraction. You can't say the Arena is it. You can't say the ballpark is it. Both are nice but pretty much expected these days. It certainly isn't an old Blue Domed gas station from the thirties. It isn't the growing number of creative alternate uses of warehouses and structures from early day Tulsa. It isn't the accumulation of artists or yearly art festivals. All of these are the seeds planted for a downtown population that isn't there yet. We went at it backwards (making no judgement there) and the housing is now in process. Probably, like Artist implies, because the money and mentality for development is suburban oriented. Can't blame them for doing what they know how to do.

So, a few years from now it will be a convenient place to live and work. Development downtown has been like the three characters of Wizard of Oz each needing something to be complete. We found the brains. We found the courage. Now, if we want it to be attractive to people outside of the nearby downtown area, we need a heart.

Then, keep this in mind. Of the half million or so souls that reside here, how many are possible customers of downtown goods and services? Has anyone assembled a true profile of who that person is? The demographic attracted to the inner city is much smaller than most would assume I wager. Anyway, why would they visit and spend money, on a continuing basis, downtown when most every need they have can be met within their own residential area?

In short, its time to focus on a central attraction or feature that differentiates our downtown from its suburbs or other downtowns. We have no river running through it and even though there is Deco downtown it is not the central feature nor universally admired. That's what I find missing. An identifying feature that people are drawn to for its sheer uniqueness.

[Teatownclown]

Good idea!


How you going to pay for it?

[AquaMan]

Good idea!


How you going to pay for it?

You have to dream it first. Then sell the dream. Then get the taxpayer or local foundations to pony up. Or private investors. But, yes, indeed that is the question.

[takemebacktotulsa]

i think the unique thing about downtown tulsa is that it is "tulsa". it doesnt try to copy anything from other cities. every establishment downtown (for the most part) is unique to tulsa. and i would really love to see it stay that way.

as opposed to bricktown (which i think is absolutely horrid), which doesn't have anything that is unique to OKC (which is why i think it's horrid). it's just a suburban development made to look urban. it's much too forced. i really don't want that to happen to downtown tulsa.

so far, downtown has grown very organically. very grassroots. and i think that's what makes it unique, and thats the way i want to see stay.

[AquaMan]

Fair enough and pretty accurate. So, slow and smart. But the emphasis is on slow. That implies that downtown development is intended for the transplanted sophisticates and those who choose to reside within the downtown area and are willing to pay alot more to do so.

Do you think the current players/developers are in agreement with that view?

[takemebacktotulsa]

i don't mind it being slow. i'd rather developers/citizens/govt make informed, well thought out desicions about development instead of rushing into something we might regret. slow and steady wins the race!

i think up until very recently the downtown development has been intended for tulsans. i don't really see many transplanted sophisticates (although i don't really know what you mean by that) downtown. just young tulsans, really.

as for the developer's views, i think the retail/restaurant developers have done a very good job catering to normal young tulsans. as for the real estate, i think there should be some more affordable options.

most people i know in tulsa live just outside down (owen park, brady heights, ect.), where rent is substantially cheaper than downtown, and you are only a quarter mile from the action.

[AquaMan]

i don't mind it being slow.

The north side of downtown has been in "development" since I was your age. David Sharp was a young man. Long time ago. That's pretty slow. I think that some of the current players may be overestimating how large and affluent the demographic is for what is being offered downtown. That intrigues me because, if true, they may very well be amenable to making it more tourist oriented to attract outside money. I don't foresee that the costs of building are any lower downtown, and therefore the rental/purchase rates, aren't going to be any more affordable to young Tulsans than Cherry Street lofts have been. If true, the areas in Brady, Owen and near South should firm up in pricing. Some say its already started. The transplanted sophisticates I refer to would be those well paid folks who have transferred here from larger cities or cities that already have nurtured an exciting downtown. They have no problem with the cost of living here and have the money to live any way, any where they want. They want arts, entertainment and sophistication that the burbs may not offer. But how many of them are there? 

I'm just not sure of who or what downtown is aiming at. If its entertainment dominant, then expect some large attraction to be proposed. If its slow growing residential then one might expect that the prices would squeeze out "normal" young Tulsan's in favor of those who are cashing in, retiring and learning to live a new lifestyle. Then, there goes the neigborhood....

I wouldn't mind a really cool attraction downtown if it were kept in perspective. Not 20 story Native American statues, but maybe something else cool to really distinguish us.

[Ed W]

I love going downtown on Saturday or Sunday morning.  You can stand in the middle of the street taking pictures and there's no traffic to consider.  You could film a post-apocalypse movie without any street closures.  It's deserted.  The only thing missing is Charlton Heston careening around in a convertible, shooting out windows with a sub-machine gun.

It's one of the best kept secrets in Tulsa.  Running, walking, or biking in the downtown area is wonderful on the weekends.  If it's re-developed, that won't last.

Here's my vision of downtown development: a Starbucks next to an Old Navy next to a Radio Shack next to a Pier One next to a Starbucks.  That's only mildly facetious.  When the area begins to develop, probably due to local businesses taking the plunge, those big chains will take over.  Like Willie Sutton said, "That's where the money is!" They have the deep pockets that can buy up properties and preclude competition.

[Red Arrow]

Here's my vision of downtown development: a Starbucks next to an Old Navy next to a Radio Shack next to a Pier One next to a Starbucks.  That's only mildly facetious.  When the area begins to develop, probably due to local businesses taking the plunge, those big chains will take over.  Like Willie Sutton said, "That's where the money is!" They have the deep pockets that can buy up properties and preclude competition.

That will happen when there are sufficient numbers of people living downtown. Chicken and egg, I know. There is no reason for "me" to drive downtown to a Radio Shack when there is one a 101st and Memorial.  For downtown to attract suburbanites, there will need to be things unique to downtown that suburbia cannot support by itself.  Once you get "me" downtown, other businesses may benefit by the convenience of "me" already being there.

[Red Arrow]

I don't foresee that the costs of building are any lower downtown, and therefore the rental/purchase rates, aren't going to be any more affordable to young Tulsans than Cherry Street lofts have been.

I think that one of the problems with affordable downtown living is that our early wealthy people moved quickly to areas outside of downtown.  We don't have the huge brownstones like Boston that can be subdivided with a minimal investment. 

Another problem is that the current generations (Including mine, Baby Boomers) expect all the finest granite counters and latest gadgets.  After all, we are entitled to the best.  (Where did our parents go wrong?)  One of my cousins lived in a brownstone apartment in Boston for a while in the 70s. The plumbing was decent and functional but looked more like Ralph Kramden than 2010.  A few doors were sticky......   The woodwork had 20,000 (OK, I exaggerate a bit.) coats of paint and lost all its original definition.  There was a cool personnel elevator that held about 4 people.  It was quicker to take the steps.  I remember it as a somewhat grand staircase. I don't know if that would be rentable in today's Tulsa market.

[AquaMan]

There were multi unit apartments all around the downtown area. Unfortunately they were razed to make room for expressways and office buildings. Many had just become so dilapidated as to be ready for destruction. That has continued right up to the present day when four plexes were razed to put in lofts in Cherry Street.

I too remember being thrilled to have Formica in my first house. Even if it was orange. Now if you don't have granite you're poor.

[we vs us]

Aquaman, you took the thread right out of my mouth.

Artist had a good passionate couple of comments in the Parking Garage thread, and  to me the crux of his argument was, and I quote "Seems like we first think of catering more to the suburbanite than the urbanite in our downtown." 

And your response above, which is to ask about the true market for all things "urban" in Tulsa, is spot spot spot on.  As a once and hopefully future urbanite, my antennae are up constantly for signs of further citification for Tulsa, and I have to say that even with downtown's relative renaissance, we remain a city of primarily suburban families.  There's a moderate upswell of interest in downtown as a playground -- mostly for the young and single, of whom we have precious few in our town -- but that doesn't make it sustainable for truly full on urban infrastructure.  We cater to the suburbanites because we're a city of suburbanites. 

But even more than that, we've been a city of suburbanites for decades now.  Look at the concentric rings of housing stock emanating out from downtown.  It's not hard to see the eras, like tree rings -- 20's in Owen Park, Maple Ridge, the Pearl; pre and post war bungalows all the way east to the fairgrounds and south along the river to 51st; 50's and 60's modern around 41st and 51st from Utica to Sheridan; then the 80's all the way south to the Mall, where we start getting into the 90's and more modern.  I mean, all of that's approximate, but you get the sense, even when you rewind all the way to my hood (just north of Expo Square, circa 1950), no one really cared about walkability, density, or urbanity.  Hell, we don't even have sidewalks, and we've NEVER had sidewalks.  All the way back to 1948 when my house was built. 

I firmly believe that Tulsans aren't city people.  They may have been once, but that envelope of time is long gone.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't grow our city sustainably, smartly, and that we can't have some of the amenities of modern metroplexes.  But there are going to be things that are just going to be beyond our reach.  There will be things that will never be able to generate enough interest to support.  Light rail is one of those things.  A downtown that banishes cars either in part or altogether is another.  This is not to say that there won't be constituencies for these things.  And it's not to say that those constituencies will be right.   But I truly believe there's a stunning number of folks who believe otherwise.   

[RecycleMichael]

I want a bakery for downtown. I would settle for something like a Merritt's or Panera but would really like something like Harvest in the Farm Shopping center. There is a Czech bakery in West Texas off 1-35 that makes kolaches  and probably has 3,000 customers a day and makes the most delicious kolaches. That is what I want.

[we vs us]

But anyway, rant aside, I think that regarding downtown development, we're at the end of the beginning.  Thanks to a relatively few people and their investments and political will, we have districts set and some solid idea of where the next nodes of development will be.  The next great challenge will be how to bring the suburbanites back downtown, not to live but to visit and to spend their money.  We've got sports, shows, and some basic dining choices already.  Now we need shopping, perceived safety, more physical beauty, and ease of use.  

I know some of these are in the works/proposed, but here's what i'd like to see:

-- a couple more parks, preferably with impressive art and architecture therein

-- some flagship chain restaurants, preferably upscale or hip (yep, chains; nothing legitimizes a commercial district like corporate investment)

-- more high dollar restaurants.  As Mahogany as you can go.  

-- better freakin' street surfaces.

-- fewer one way streets  

-- bike cops, Segway cops, cops parked at major intersections, cops walking around into and out of businesses.  Cops cops cops.  Not arresting anyone just a friendly omnipresence.  I swear that will make the homeless folks more scarce, and of their own volition.

-- Shopping.  Actual shopping.  Like artsy stores but also boutiques.  Wouldn't it be great if we could get Utica Square to loan out its name and brand to a downtown collection of stores?  Talk about instant cred.  

-- more housing just outside the IDL.  The Pearl should be a top priority as should all of the vacant land down the hill towards 18th and Boston.

-- a pretty pretty pony.  

[Red Arrow]

The next great challenge will be how to bring the suburbanites back downtown, not to live but to visit and to spend their money.  We've got sports, shows, and some basic dining choices already.  Now we need shopping, perceived safety, more physical beauty, and ease of use.  ...
-- Shopping.  Actual shopping.  Like artsy stores but also boutiques.  Wouldn't it be great if we could get Utica Square to loan out its name and brand to a downtown collection of stores?  Talk about instant cred.  

Shopping, for something not available at the malls.  I don't know what that may be at the moment but it won't be another Penneys, Sears, Dillards.....  Eventually, downtown may need them for the local residents but you won't get suburbanites downtown for stores available at the malls.