Changes to Tulsa's residential trash system

[AquaMan]

Truer words have never been spoken by any of the Plutocrats that seek to control.

When people form a society they look for water. They band together in order to produce clean water.  They expect to all chip in and pay for the upkeep of the water system they have created.   Along comes the Plutocrats and they say "Let's collect a fee on the water to paint all curbs red".  "To insure that those who don't want red curbs and refuse to pay the fee we can make a rule that anytime they pay a part of the water bill we will apply that first to the fee's and we can turn their water off for not paying their water bill.  So the Plutocrats smile at the poor, the aged, and retiree's as they count the treasures they collect from needy.   

 

There is truth to what you describe, Shady. If that is your argument then it has some merit. Spending fees that are earmarked for a societal necessity, water, on non related services and using the need for water as leverage to do so is wrong. The populace always has recourse through litigation, exposure in the press or voting the rascals out.

Sewer and refuse are not good examples though. They are related to the delivery of water services.  EMSA is. Any other examples?

[shadows]

AM: That is not my argument totally.  The standing would be that the contract was awarded on the bid projected to start on July 1.  After the bid was accepted and agreed on it was changed to starting October 1, some three months later.  This three month delay possible would make a change in the other bids in giving the extra time to purchase the new trucks.                                                                                                                                                                                                               

Second: State statue 11$14-103: Emergency measures, (in part) An emergency measure necessary for the immediate preservation of peace, health or safety must state, in a separate section, the reason why it is necessary that the measure become effective immediately;………………………….

The millions of dollars in the trash contract, in the date change, of which all the bidders were not aware of, then it should be voided and re-bid.   

The trash board, being appointed, possibly could be defined as a non-governing body.  There were other bidders who were capable of doing the change without any delay in the service.

As having posted before, first get the contract, and then make the profit on the changes.   

[Red Arrow]

The trash board, being appointed, possibly could be defined as a non-governing body. 

The government is full of those kind of organizations with non-elected officials:

OSHA, EPA, FAA are the ones that come to my mind immediately.

There is some kind of law that allows those kind of agencies to develop regulations that have the effect of law without being voted on by any elected body or the public. Whether that is good or not probably depends on the observer.

[shadows]

Yes; these were challenged in in the first part of the 1860ies.
The senator, in his new book, stresses the collapse of our economy system. 
This is to happen as these Plutocrats gain control with life time appointments. 
Very few of even the elected offices are filled with persons who receive a majority vote.
We are controlled by the appointed officials and it is an impossible task to challenge them as they are not subject to being elected by the voters.
Government of the people? Not any more.
   

[nathanm]

There is some kind of law that allows those kind of agencies to develop regulations that have the effect of law without being voted on by any elected body or the public. Whether that is good or not probably depends on the observer.

That's a simplistic view. In most modern cases, Congress establishes the broad strokes of whatever they're trying to accomplish, leaving the details up to the executive branch. The executive branch can't just go out and make law where they have no authority, it must have been granted by Congress in the first place. Some in Congress might, from time to time, argue that the executive branch is overstepping the bounds laid down by the law in question, but that's why we have courts.

[shadows]

The Supreme Court seems to make the binding laws that the citizen has no choice but to accept.  Many of the laws or rules contain clauses that discredit’s the intent of the law.  By the time it is challenged in the high court it often deviates from its purpose as the rule of law.

The city councilor who is challenging the 34 years of the C.E.O. of EMSA reign by asking for a investigating may be like striking a hornet nest with a tooth pick.

What is your input in the bidding process, as required by statute, whereas the conditions were changed after the bids were canvassed?  If the winning bidder’s company could not provide the service as specified on the bid sheet should not the company be liable to furnish the service by employing another company to perform the service until the bidder’s company could full-fill its obligation to perform the service they won in such bid process? 

If this is the way that changes can be made in the bid process why would anyone gather the information to submit a bid?           

[Red Arrow]

leaving the details up to the executive branch.

That's where most of the problems and disagreements start.

[AquaMan]

The Supreme Court seems to make the binding laws that the citizen has no choice but to accept.  Many of the laws or rules contain clauses that discredit's the intent of the law.  By the time it is challenged in the high court it often deviates from its purpose as the rule of law.

The city councilor who is challenging the 34 years of the C.E.O. of EMSA reign by asking for a investigating may be like striking a hornet nest with a tooth pick.

What is your input in the bidding process, as required by statute, whereas the conditions were changed after the bids were canvassed?  If the winning bidder's company could not provide the service as specified on the bid sheet should not the company be liable to furnish the service by employing another company to perform the service until the bidder's company could full-fill its obligation to perform the service they won in such bid process? 

If this is the way that changes can be made in the bid process why would anyone gather the information to submit a bid?           

You're first paragraph is just junk.

However, if you want to investigate, analyze and critique the government bid process, I'm sure there are players on this forum who know it quite well and have discussed it before. There are lots of gray areas in the process and, yes, it seems to be a process that is frustrating for the losers. One of my friends who often participated was pretty stunned by how unfair it seemed, yet, he learned something each time he lost a bid that helped him the next time. He won just enough to keep him pitching.

You think the process is suspect in Tulsa, you should talk to people who bid on small town and rural county stuff. You best be one of their buds or you won't even get to pitch.

[nathanm]

That's where most of the problems and disagreements start.

Talk to Congress. Personally, I think it's a much more sane way of handling most topics than setting all the minutiae in stone. You think red tape and slow reaction is a problem now? Oy.

[shadows]

As you are aware Tulsa’s bidding process can cost a bidder thousands of dollars to locate the materials needed to fill out the bid sheet plus arranging for the performance bonds. 

I am not at liberty nor in the position to show the fallacious in the bid system but the trash hauling involving multi-millions of dollars over 14 years would be a plum in any one’s portfolio if the contract is written on a sheet of rubber.   In the last biding process all bidders were not told they would be given extra time if they could not meet the July 1 deadline.   The intent of the statue for Municipalities was written to insure the citizens that all their tax monies and business was conducted above the table.

[Red Arrow]

Talk to Congress. Personally, I think it's a much more sane way of handling most topics than setting all the minutiae in stone. You think red tape and slow reaction is a problem now? Oy.

I don't expect Congress to do all the legwork.  I do expect them to review things like requiring a split ring toilet seat in a private business with the restroom not open to the public.  I'm not making that up.  It happened to a college friend's dad at his business.  The problem is not so much that stupid regulations get the force of law as much as that there is apparently not a review or appeal process in place.

[rdj]

I thought it was delayed because of the lawsuits?

[RecycleMichael]

A group of failed politicians looking for attention had a press conference saying they were going to file a lawsuit but haven't filed yet.

[rdj]

A group of failed politicians looking for attention had a press conference saying they were going to file a lawsuit but haven't filed yet.

I meant the lawsuit that was filed several months ago by the current coalition of haulers.

[Hoss]

I meant the lawsuit that was filed several months ago by the current coalition of haulers.

Wasn't that settled where in the process included a transition period that TRI could extend the contract month to month while the new contract was being phased in?