Just One Important Issue

[Townsend]

And those are on permits which were granted two or three decades ago.  The only thing we can thank the O Admin for on those is not quashing the permits.

Who's admins have quashed them since two or three decades ago?

[Conan71]

Who's admins have quashed them since two or three decades ago?

I must have misunderstood.  I thought you were making it sound as if the Obama administration was responsible for this.

[Townsend]

I must have misunderstood.  I thought you were making it sound as if the Obama administration was responsible for this.

I'm not sure any admin is responsible for this.  I guess it's whoever controls the regulatory agency and the money folk.

[Conan71]

I'm not sure any admin is responsible for this.  I guess it's whoever controls the regulatory agency and the money folk.

Well, we know one thing for sure.  It's Bush's fault

[Gaspar]

Surfing on a wave of blame does not give you a pass to fail.

[Townsend]

Surfing on a wave of blame does not give you a pass to fail.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

[jacobi]

I've never seen so many people so quick to blame...for blaming.

[AquaMan]

Its your fault for paying attention. Stop that.

[heironymouspasparagus]

As for alternative fuels and other "green" modes of transportation, until it is proven that a hybrid does not do more harm than good (environmentally), They should be required to put the amount of GH gases produced in the production of the hybrid on the sticker, and then the number of years to "payback" with fuel savings based upon a vehicle with an EPA of 25 MPG.  It would actually be better to pick up one of the new Hyundai's with 35-40mpg than a prius. 

I have had the economic discussion with 3 family members that have Prius'.  By far and away, it is cheaper to buy a Corolla and get it's 30 - 35 mpg at $15-18k than to buy a Prius at $27-32k.  One has had Corolla AND Prius.  Loves the Prius.  But over the entire life of the car, it is cheaper to drive the Corolla.

There is some market warpage going on with the Prius similar to what happens with Corolla and Civic when gas goes up.  This person has bought Corolla's and Camry's (trades a lot), driven them for a year to 18 months, then sold them for the same price paid originally.  Prius is at that point now and it looks like it will sell for a few hundred more than paid for.  Low mileage, good condition, and all that...  so the Prius is gonna be a negative cost. 

The other two bought and held the cars, so the Corolla would have been cheaper.

Buying a Prius is like buying a BMW - ya do it cause it makes ya feel good, not because it is cost effective transportation.  There are better ways to accomplish the basic goal for both.

Tesla is there, too. 

[heironymouspasparagus]

SOTU 2010
But to create more of these clean energy jobs, we need more production, more efficiency, more incentives. And that means building a new generation of safe, clean nuclear power plants in this country. (Applause.) It means making tough decisions about opening new offshore areas for oil and gas development.

Or build the two same size solar plants and keep the other half - $7 billion - PLUS the cost of fuel at 0.25 per kwh.

Or twice as many for the same price!  And still keep the 0.25 per kwh.

[dbacks fan]

The discussion of gas vs diesel cars got me to thinking about a diesel cr I would by, a VW Jetta TDI. So I decided to look at some real numbers to compare a gas vs diesel. A base 2012 gas Jetta from Kelly Blue Book in my area is ~ $15,500.00, a diesel is ~ $22,300.00. The average mpg for the gas is 26mpg and the average for the diesel is 34mpg. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Volkswagen2012.shtml

Basing my numbers on 1000 miles per month of combined city and highway, and at current prices in this region, $3.439 for gas and $4.049 for diesel, I would spend $132.00 for gas and $119.00 for diesel for a savings of $13.00/month or $156.00/year for the diesel. It seems that it would take a very long time to get back the savings per month to cover the price difference of $6800.00 between the gas and the diesel.

http://www.kbb.com/compare-cars/2012-volkswagen-jetta-365605-vs-2012-volkswagen-jetta-365626-vs-volkswagen-jetta-2012-365621/

Using gasbuddy.com, I realize that the price of diesel in Tulsa is on average ~ $.30 cheaper than Oregon, I find it even harder to get a realistic ROI on owning a diesel over a gas car.

Crap, my Miata splits the difference between the gas and diesel Jetta's mpg, and I can put the top down.

[heironymouspasparagus]

The discussion of gas vs diesel cars got me to thinking about a diesel cr I would by, a VW Jetta TDI. So I decided to look at some real numbers to compare a gas vs diesel. A base 2012 gas Jetta from Kelly Blue Book in my area is ~ $15,500.00, a diesel is ~ $22,300.00. The average mpg for the gas is 26mpg and the average for the diesel is 34mpg. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Volkswagen2012.shtml

Basing my numbers on 1000 miles per month of combined city and highway, and at current prices in this region, $3.439 for gas and $4.049 for diesel, I would spend $132.00 for gas and $119.00 for diesel for a savings of $13.00/month or $156.00/year for the diesel. It seems that it would take a very long time to get back the savings per month to cover the price difference of $6800.00 between the gas and the diesel.

http://www.kbb.com/compare-cars/2012-volkswagen-jetta-365605-vs-2012-volkswagen-jetta-365626-vs-volkswagen-jetta-2012-365621/

Using gasbuddy.com, I realize that the price of diesel in Tulsa is on average ~ $.30 cheaper than Oregon, I find it even harder to get a realistic ROI on owning a diesel over a gas car.

Crap, my Miata splits the difference between the gas and diesel Jetta's mpg, and I can put the top down.

I rented a gas Jetta for a week in Ft Worth and got 31 mpg combined - back and forth to Dallas a couple of times, then a lot of driving around town.  Not a definitive mileage, but what I would expect for my driving pattern (highway vs city).  As an aside, I also got 31 mpg in a Ford Fusion for a week and it was a much more comfortable car to drive - for me - than the Jetta.

Haven't driven the new TDI.  MotorWeek last Sunday said their long term testing of Jetta was giving them 38 mpg combined.  Brother had a 1977 VW Rabbit diesel and the range was from 43 low to about 55 hi (highway) - and got over 400,000 miles on the car.  Ran MUCH longer than the same Rabbit in gas.

I want Subaru to start bringing in their diesel for the US market.  The Legacy's I have rented have always been very comfortable and seem to be well built - based on 1 week at a time rental type usage.  Can't remember exact mileage, but I know I was never disappointed (over 25 mpg doesn't disappoint me), so diesel would be even better.

Driving a diesel is pretty much a 'niche' market activity here in the states - it won't pay off for most.  I wouldn't have anything else in a pickup, but in a car, there are many more issues.  It would pay off with my driving, but most of my family/friends would not benefit - actually may cost them more.  I had a 1978 Olds Delta diesel for a couple years.  Loved the car!!  I drove from Denver to Broken Arrow one day and did not have to stop for fuel.  Was on fumes, but made it at about 29 mpg.  Not bad for that lead sled!  At 26,000 miles, the injector pump shelled out - maintenance is one of those issues, even when the engine doesn't have inherent problems like Olds did.  But then, it was a GM, at the time when they were really just starting down their path of self destruction....

VW is really arrogant right now about the TDI.  I have talked to Tulsa and OKC dealers and they have a definite attitude about how their s*** don't stink!  OKC was not as bad as Tulsa with that, though.

[Conan71]

The discussion of gas vs diesel cars got me to thinking about a diesel cr I would by, a VW Jetta TDI. So I decided to look at some real numbers to compare a gas vs diesel. A base 2012 gas Jetta from Kelly Blue Book in my area is ~ $15,500.00, a diesel is ~ $22,300.00. The average mpg for the gas is 26mpg and the average for the diesel is 34mpg. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Volkswagen2012.shtml

Basing my numbers on 1000 miles per month of combined city and highway, and at current prices in this region, $3.439 for gas and $4.049 for diesel, I would spend $132.00 for gas and $119.00 for diesel for a savings of $13.00/month or $156.00/year for the diesel. It seems that it would take a very long time to get back the savings per month to cover the price difference of $6800.00 between the gas and the diesel.

http://www.kbb.com/compare-cars/2012-volkswagen-jetta-365605-vs-2012-volkswagen-jetta-365626-vs-volkswagen-jetta-2012-365621/

Using gasbuddy.com, I realize that the price of diesel in Tulsa is on average ~ $.30 cheaper than Oregon, I find it even harder to get a realistic ROI on owning a diesel over a gas car.

Crap, my Miata splits the difference between the gas and diesel Jetta's mpg, and I can put the top down.

Good luck trying to buy that $15,500 gas Jetta.  When I was car shopping this time last year, they didn't exist, but you could have the next level up for $17,500 or so.  Great cars and fun to drive, but ultimately I bought a used Sonata.  Apparently each dealer gets a very limited number of loss-leader units.

[JCnOwasso]

I rented a gas Jetta for a week in Ft Worth and got 31 mpg combined - back and forth to Dallas a couple of times, then a lot of driving around town.  Not a definitive mileage, but what I would expect for my driving pattern (highway vs city).  As an aside, I also got 31 mpg in a Ford Fusion for a week and it was a much more comfortable car to drive - for me - than the Jetta.

Haven't driven the new TDI.  MotorWeek last Sunday said their long term testing of Jetta was giving them 38 mpg combined.  Brother had a 1977 VW Rabbit diesel and the range was from 43 low to about 55 hi (highway) - and got over 400,000 miles on the car.  Ran MUCH longer than the same Rabbit in gas.

This is the reason I say it is better to get a Diesel.  The hybrid has no proven track record for long term performance.  Many only warranty their batteries for the first 100,000 miles(?)  Hyundai has said they have tested the Sonata hybrid to 200,000, but with a diesel you are looking at 200,000 without breaking a sweat.  You look at the overall Carbon emissions from production on and the diesel would look like a hippy treehugger compared to the hybrid.

[Conan71]

This is the reason I say it is better to get a Diesel.  The hybrid has no proven track record for long term performance.  Many only warranty their batteries for the first 100,000 miles(?)  Hyundai has said they have tested the Sonata hybrid to 200,000, but with a diesel you are looking at 200,000 without breaking a sweat.  You look at the overall Carbon emissions from production on and the diesel would look like a hippy treehugger compared to the hybrid.

And that's funny because the prevailing public image on diesels is they are dirty burning vehicles.  Good points JC.