Just One Important Issue

[AquaMan]

Tell that to this guy..... http://www.volvocars.com/intl/top/about/news-events/pages/default.aspx?itemid=192

Not much time before second shift. Is that the million mile guy? I bought the Volvo rep back around 1990. Bought a smart looking 1978 264 with leather and 70,000 miles. Great car with a secure feeling. As bad a rep as the v-6 Renault engine had, I did pretty well with it. Passed it on to the teenager 8 years later with only a water pump and thermostat as expenses (of course i had to take off the intake manifold to get to them!).

But alas, the leather disintegrated, the a/c was always anemic then gave up altogether, the exterior paint faded, the electric window switches failed, the headliner started to sag and the final blow was when the teen rear ended a Ford truck. Still, all it needed was a grille, hood and fender. Sold it to an optimistic friend to rebuild with only 145K on it.

[Gaspar]

Would you like to sell bar-b-que sauce that lasted 3 times as long as your competitors but cost 4 times as much?  

Auto mfrs. need to build in obsolescence or charge higher prices like the German cars. It not only creates brand habits but enables them to sell financing. Right or wrong that's their plan since post WWII. Truthfully there are only so many improvements you can make using existing technology. Our needs have been met when you consider that today's passenger car Detroit steel outhandles a Ferrari from the 1980's and has better climate control to boot. Most cars change very little over a decade though they outwardly go through many "skins". That keeps the prices lower to avoid massive re-tooling.

All I'm saying is that diesels and electric motors outlast their car bodies and their creature comforts. Even in well built cars. Why not capitalize on that and institute replaceable bodies on durable chassis's. It is recycling in a big way and meets both consumer and manufacturer needs. Obviously GM thinks so or they wouldn't be exploring the process.

I like the idea of a modular system like that!  Suspension and power plant made to last decades.  Instead of shopping for a new car, just go get a new body/interior/control cluster.  Have kids? Convert your sedan to a mini-van.

Lets start a company. 
TulsaNow Motors

[JCnOwasso]

I like the idea of a modular system like that!  Suspension and power plant made to last decades.  Instead of shopping for a new car, just go get a new body/interior/control cluster.  Have kids? Convert your sedan to a mini-van.

Lets start a company. 
TulsaNow Motors

Yeah, there was something on the Discovery channel a few years back called "Future Car" which was a design competition (i think) where they utilize a singular chassis and can interchange bodies.  Was pretty interesting.

[jacobi]

Why is it that people feel that the car has to stay, at least for personal transportation?  I don't get it.  Why would we continue to use an engery inefficient machine to prolong an energy inefficient way of life.  You want to live 20 miles from an urban center?  Great!  You're a farmer, not an enginieer, accountant etc.  when you live that far from an urban core.  This faux-rural lifestyle needs to stop.  I wont beat a dead horse any more.

[Gaspar]

Why is it that people feel that the car has to stay, at least for personal transportation?  I don't get it.  Why would we continue to use an engery inefficient machine to prolong an energy inefficient way of life.  You want to live 20 miles from an urban center?  Great!  You're a farmer, not an enginieer, accountant etc.  when you live that far from an urban core.  This faux-rural lifestyle needs to stop.  I wont beat a dead horse any more.

Good. 
Because we are free, and until that changes, we will continue to exercise our freedom.

[jacobi]

Because we are free, and until that changes, we will continue to exercise our freedom.

Are you free?  What do you mean by free?

[Conan71]

Are you free?  What do you mean by free?

I wouldn't say he's free but he's pretty cheap.

[dbacks fan]

I like the idea of a modular system like that!  Suspension and power plant made to last decades.  Instead of shopping for a new car, just go get a new body/interior/control cluster.  Have kids? Convert your sedan to a mini-van.

Lets start a company. 
TulsaNow Motors

Chrysler beat you to it with the K Car in the 80's. One platform, from Omni to New Yorker and the Caravan.

[JCnOwasso]

Why is it that people feel that the car has to stay, at least for personal transportation?  I don't get it.  Why would we continue to use an engery inefficient machine to prolong an energy inefficient way of life.  You want to live 20 miles from an urban center?  Great!  You're a farmer, not an enginieer, accountant etc.  when you live that far from an urban core.  This faux-rural lifestyle needs to stop.  I wont beat a dead horse any more.

I am sure that at some point in our life there will be a technology that will eclipse the car as the means of transportation, but this is not the late 1800's early 1900's where your primary method of transportation was a horse/buggy, it does not take 4 hours to make a 20 mile trip. 

Locations like NYC are limited due to available land and there is only one way to grow, UP.  Tulsa and just about every place in the US has the ability to grow out.  And let's get real, my 20 mile trip to work is still less than any person I know who lives in LA, NYC, DC, and take the metro or other means of public transport.  One brush does not work for every situation. 

[Gaspar]

Why is it that people feel that the car has to stay, at least for personal transportation?  I don't get it.  Why would we continue to use an engery inefficient machine to prolong an energy inefficient way of life.  You want to live 20 miles from an urban center?  Great!  You're a farmer, not an enginieer, accountant etc.  when you live that far from an urban core.  This faux-rural lifestyle needs to stop.  I wont beat a dead horse any more.

What if I'm an engineer, accountant, or school teacher that likes to live out in the country in a big house with a nice big lawn that my kids can play football in, and a swimming pool in the back that is so quiet I can float around in the afternoon with a cold beer and hear nothing but the sound grasshoppers and robins?

No one can require me to live anywhere.  

[nathanm]

No one can require me to live anywhere.  

The invisible hand of the free market already limits your choice, and it's only going to get more punishing as energy prices continue to increase.

In recognition of the dwindling of reasonably priced fossil fuels, I would like it very much if we could put the trolleys back in.

[Red Arrow]

The invisible hand of the free market already limits your choice, and it's only going to get more punishing as energy prices continue to increase.

In recognition of the dwindling of reasonably priced fossil fuels, I would like it very much if we could put the trolleys back in.

The free market limits in both directions.  The price of urban housing appears to frequently trump the cost of commuting, even with a personal automobile.  There is obviously a miles limit depending on the price of gas, housing etc.  The same type of choice is made when choosing to keep an old, paid for car vs. buying a new(er) one with better gas mileage.

I would like the trolleys to return too but I probably won't live long enough to see them here near 111th and Memorial.  We knew we were out in the sticks when we moved here and wanted it that way.  A downtown circulator is a must to get some of the surface parking back to productive use.

[Conan71]

The invisible hand of the free market already limits your choice, and it's only going to get more punishing as energy prices continue to increase.

In recognition of the dwindling of reasonably priced fossil fuels, I would like it very much if we could put the trolleys back in.

I biznitch really loud when fuel prices are way up, but my boss manages to point out that by an odd circumstance, that my income seems pretty much tied to the price of oil, natural gas, and gasoline and rises disproportionately when those prices are up.

And just FYI, there may be a dwindling of reasonably-priced fossil fuels, but there's no dwindling supply to justify what's happening.  The government is allowing totally stupid trading practices that are falsely inflating the price of oil.  Commodity traders who deal in energy get about the same amount of esteem from me as ticket scalpers do. 

[nathanm]

And just FYI, there may be a dwindling of reasonably-priced fossil fuels, but there's no dwindling supply to justify what's happening.  The government is allowing totally stupid trading practices that are falsely inflating the price of oil.  Commodity traders who deal in energy get about the same amount of esteem from me as ticket scalpers do. 

I don't in any way disagree with your diagnosis of rampant speculation, but I think that the speculators are being aided and abetted by an oil supply that would only be barely meeting (relatively inelastic) demand were it not for the economic crisis. Obviously there's some room for reduction in use, but the figures I've seen recently show that, on a global scale, oil supplies seem constricted. Perhaps we will see some relief if the Brazilians manage to get their ultra-deep play going.

The price of refined products isn't being helped by the growing mismatch between the types of oil refineries were built to process and what they're getting. Again, thanks to supply issues.

Point being that there's a confluence of a large number of issues driving energy prices these days. And yes, speculation is a huge one.

[jacobi]

What if I'm an engineer, accountant, or school teacher that likes to live out in the country in a big house with a nice big lawn that my kids can play football in, and a swimming pool in the back that is so quiet I can float around in the afternoon with a cold beer and hear nothing but the sound grasshoppers and robins?

No one can require me to live anywhere.

Who said anything about someONE requiring you to live somewhere?  SomeTHING (the price of oil and subsequently every other commodity) will ultimately decide for you. 

I'm not talking about a government fiat.  I'm saying that living in the deep suburbs is an excess that can be afforded only by cheap access to petroleum.  Rather than looking at ways to reduce the amount of energy (in the more newtonian sense) one uses in ones daily life, people look for ways to game the system.  In the face of a dwindling energy supply, people rush to the electric car rather than reducing the need for a car.

Just saying "I'm free" doesn't exuse your paranoid, destructive, and wasteful choices for your life.  It certainly shouldn't be the part of the public good (government) to subsidize your wasteful lifestyle (gasoline subsidies).

All of this said, I'm sorry I got engaged.  I really hate talking politics on here.  I joined TNF to get the scoop on new housing projects and see what good ideas people had about ways to bring our badass little city together.  For me, energy policy and city planning go hand in hand, and that is why when petroleum is brought up, I feel I need to speak.  I will stay away from your post from now on Gaspar.

Gaspar says: Good.