Downtown Densities (from S&J Discussion)

[Conan71]

Well, you're never too old to learn something stupid.

Let me get this straight. You don't like the budget deficit but you're all for white elephants?

I don't recall the federal gubmint going into hock to fund BOK Arena or OneOk Field.  Different check books.

Where would downtown development be today without either of these two elements?  What's the civic value in being able to have Sir Paul, Eric Clapton, Elton John, Bruce Springsteen, and the NCAA play in our city?  It's a livability issue.  Not everything has to have an ROI in terms of money spent and money returned, though the BOK seems to be doing better than most arenas financially.

Private development doesn't happen without some sort of coinciding public development like roads, community centers, or fair grounds.

[Teatownclown]

I don't recall the federal gubmint going into hock to fund BOK Arena or OneOk Field.  Different check books.

Where would downtown development be today without either of these two elements?  What's the civic value in being able to have Sir Paul, Eric Clapton, Elton John, Bruce Springsteen, and the NCAA play in our city? 

OK, what?  Tulsa Downtown needs a big event....the arena and the ball park help, but not enough. Sorry. Fail.

[Conan71]

OK, what?  Tulsa Downtown needs a big event....the arena and the ball park help, but not enough. Sorry. Fail.

You need to quit reading Batesline.

[Teatownclown]

Is he still doing that? I actually think he's got better reasoning than some here...but, if you think "livability" is driving your car downtown for an evening 5 nights a year from the suburbs well then we have different takes on the definition....

[Oil Capital]

Replace I-40 with a parkway in OKC rather than widen I-44 through Tulsa.  That won't get you too many "gee thanks" on this forum.

How much per mile to re-route I-40 in OKC and widen I-44 in Tulsa?

oops.  Of course I meant to type I-44 and 244.

[Oil Capital]

oops.  Of course I meant to type I-44 and 244.

Imagine I-44 through the middle of midtown removed and replaced with a beautiful parkway, rather than widening the gash across the middle of Tulsa.  What's done is done, of course, but I think Tulsa missed an opportunity to add to its beauty and liveability.

[AquaMan]

^ This is awesome, I humbly nominate this for post of the month.

Figures. I don't understand it.

[Red Arrow]

Imagine I-44 through the middle of midtown removed and replaced with a beautiful parkway, rather than widening the gash across the middle of Tulsa.  What's done is done, of course, but I think Tulsa missed an opportunity to add to its beauty and liveability.

I believe the Skelly Bypass was originally built to keep traffic congestion by thru traffic away from downtown.  I doubt that I-244 and the Creek Tpk have the capacity to absorb removing traffic from I-44.

[Red Arrow]

Is he still doing that? I actually think he's got better reasoning than some here...but, if you think "livability" is driving your car downtown for an evening 5 nights a year from the suburbs well then we have different takes on the definition....

Livability is in the eye of the beholder. 

I like a dark sky at night, unless it's being lit by sunlight reflected by the moon.  I like hearing tree frogs and crickets.  I like smelling lawns of organic matter rather than hot concrete or asphalt.  I like having room for the dogs to play in the back yard.  I like that the nearest main road noise is about 1/4 mile away. Mostly I don't hear it. 

I like to visit the city once in a while but feel no need to be there a lot.  I spent a few years in the Navy (on shore duty) and did the "go to the bar every night" thing.  I met some nice people but felt no need to continue that pattern when I got out of the Navy in my mid 20s.  Besides, I doubt my liver would have put up with it long term.   I don't particularly enjoy going out to eat in restaurants.  I like to see a museum a few times but don't want to spend all my spare time there.  I might like to hear the symphony occasionally but not enough to get dressed up for it, even if it were next door.  I've been to the theater a few times. Yawn. I am not a sports fan.

I have lived in small, energy efficient living quarters with a commons area.  The University of Delaware called them Dormitories.  The Navy called them barracks.  Except for boot camp and some temporary duty, I was in a 4 man room. (Two man at the UofD.)  The guys next door would play their music loud.  One set of "neighbors" played their music loud and then left for their shift with the music on and the door locked.  The commons areas usually consisted of guys watching something on TV that I didn't care to watch.  There were beer machines in the Navy though.  Like a soda/pop machine except with beer for 50 cents a can. (A while ago.)  I did all that stuff in my 20s.  I don't want that now.  I didn't want it in my late 20s.

Many on TNF are struggling for the right to live like a sardine. I think all that stuff should be available for those who want it.  Just don't expect everyone to want the same thing.  Don't condemn me for wanting something different any more than you want to be condemned for wanting the life style you want.

[AquaMan]

I thought he was referring to that very fact Red. Maybe I misunderstood, but the point you both seem to be making is that downtown cannot be an area whose growth and success is dependent on those who live like you in the suburbs or outlying towns. Its not likely large numbers of suburban will jump ship and live there. The surrounding hoods? Yes. The interior? Maybe some retirees, some widowers, some empty nesters, but that's yet to be determined. And that's fine because even if they only visit 5 times a year, that's about 500,000 people visiting times 5 = 2.5 million visits to the area. Not shabby.

It is heavily oriented towards the arts, youth, entertainment and culture, yet not really oriented to 28 to 60yr old demos for living space. My assertion is that once the shallow depth of its attractiveness for living quarters becomes known, it will adapt. That adaptation may take the form of more modest living spaces and more reality based urban living as Artist notes, a determined effort to identify the area as something worth travelling over two hours to visit, or...lowered expectations. I'm hoping the latter does not happen.

[Red Arrow]

I thought he was referring to that very fact Red. Maybe I misunderstood, but the point you both seem to be making is that downtown cannot be an area whose growth and success is dependent on those who live like you in the suburbs or outlying towns.

The overall point is similar but the implication that the burbs are not livable is not true for everyone.

It is heavily oriented towards the arts, youth, entertainment and culture, yet not really oriented to 28 to 60yr old demos for living space. My assertion is that once the shallow depth of its attractiveness for living quarters becomes known, it will adapt. That adaptation may take the form of more modest living spaces and more reality based urban living as Artist notes, a determined effort to identify the area as something worth travelling over two hours to visit, or...lowered expectations. I'm hoping the latter does not happen.

One of my cousins lived in Boston in the mid 70s to early 80s at Commonwealth and Berkley in an apartment on the 5th floor.  I got to visit a few times (on company trips) and had a grand time visiting.  She had a car which mostly she could park on the street but she had a reserved parking space in a parking garage nearby in case there was no room on the street or there was a snow storm on the way.  She kept her windsurfer there. We did go out to dinner at least once.  We took the car to somewhere across the Charles River (I think).  We were going to eat in a Greek restaurant but before we ordered she sensed something was not quite right so we left.  We went to a place near the Fisherman's Wharf (or similar) where the boat crews ate.  My cousin was involved in a whale watching project.  The place was picnic tables with oilcloth covers. Bring your own wine.  I had Swordfish steak.  Yummy and reasonably priced.   I walked the Freedom Trail.  We went to the Aquarium and Boston Brewing Beer Co.(before I was a beer geek). Drove to both of those places too.  We did not go to the real Cheers as only tourists went there.  We did walk to the Esplanade for the Boston Pops 4th of July show.  Awesome. When I asked her about everyday life, it didn't seem that much different than anywhere else.  She went to school/work, came home, cooked dinner, watched TV, read a book.....  Of course there were city things to do but the point is that after the newness wore off, going shopping, out for drinks or coffee wasn't an everyday occurrence.  She didn't live within walking distance of school or work but she did have the option of effective public transit.

I hope that long term Tulsa can provide something memorable for visitors and that the urbanites will support it.  Eventually, every night is not going to be a night on the town but for some the convenience of it being nearby will be worth it.  If there is enough density, not everyone will need to go out every night to keep the businesses viable.  It will take some early determined folks to make it happen.  Anything extra from the burbs will icing.  Things like the BOK Center, the Ball Park etc will draw visitors from the burbs in spite of my lack of enthusiasm.  I did vote for the BOK (2025) as being good for the area even though most of what I want to see shows at the fairgrounds.

Time to make lunch for tomorrow.  I'm too cheap to buy lunch out and also prefer to spend part of my lunch break on a walk rather than sitting in a restaurant waiting for lunch.

Edit: Checked a bottle of Sam Adams for the proper brewery name.

[Oil Capital]

I believe the Skelly Bypass was originally built to keep traffic congestion by thru traffic away from downtown.  I doubt that I-244 and the Creek Tpk have the capacity to absorb removing traffic from I-44.

It seems to me that they probably could handle the traffic.  I have never seen 244 running anywhere near capacity, and keep in mind that we would not be removing all of the traffic . . . The local traffic would use the parkway.

[Hoss]

It seems to me that they probably could handle the traffic.  I have never seen 244 running anywhere near capacity, and keep in mind that we would not be removing all of the traffic . . . The local traffic would use the parkway.

244 was built that way in anticipation of what they perceived as a traffic influx to the Port of Catoosa (and the eventual boom of the city of Catoosa...ha) when it was built in the early 70s.  It was never conceived that the suburb to boom would be Broken Arrow.

[JCnOwasso]

I was listening to sports radio yesterday when they had John Klein on and he said something that baffled my mind.  During one of his nights out this past summer he went to a drillers game.  It was also a night where a major concert [Katy Perry?] was going on at the BOK and the Brady had another concert... all three venues were basically sold out.  In 1 night you had approximately 30,000 people downtown for 3 different entertainment choices.  How many times prior to the BOK and OneOK was that even a possibility?  During the baseball season, and with each entertainment venue (BOK, Brady, Cains, PAC, OneOK) having something to attend, you could have upwards of 50,000 people downtown.  Toss in Mayfest and the Blue Dome arts festival during other times in the year and whether some of you want to believe it or just chose to ignore it, downtown is becoming... or dare I say "Has Become" an entertainment center.  I will be honest and say that I didn't think it would happen during my youth. 

You have removed the fragmented entertainment environment of Tulsa, you now have a one stop shop for having dinner and a show/sporting event.  You can park your car and have a good evening. 

[Conan71]

I was listening to sports radio yesterday when they had John Klein on and he said something that baffled my mind.  During one of his nights out this past summer he went to a drillers game.  It was also a night where a major concert [Katy Perry?] was going on at the BOK and the Brady had another concert... all three venues were basically sold out.  In 1 night you had approximately 30,000 people downtown for 3 different entertainment choices.  How many times prior to the BOK and OneOK was that even a possibility?  During the baseball season, and with each entertainment venue (BOK, Brady, Cains, PAC, OneOK) having something to attend, you could have upwards of 50,000 people downtown.  Toss in Mayfest and the Blue Dome arts festival during other times in the year and whether some of you want to believe it or just chose to ignore it, downtown is becoming... or dare I say "Has Become" an entertainment center.  I will be honest and say that I didn't think it would happen during my youth. 

You have removed the fragmented entertainment environment of Tulsa, you now have a one stop shop for having dinner and a show/sporting event.  You can park your car and have a good evening. 

That's all fine and good but the arena and the ball field are still a complete bust 

What's neat is when the Drillers have a game during Tulsa Tough and seeing the fireworks during the Cat I/Pro race on Friday night.  Remember that Townsend?