Downtown Densities (from S&J Discussion)

[Red Arrow]

Arrow, I don't think anyone is denying your right (or anyone's) to live where you prefer.

Some, not all, urban lifestyle promoters start their spiel with the attitude that my choice of living in suburbia is going to destroy the earth within my lifetime.   I don't buy it.

To me the point is that more people would choose to live downtown if there were options for them to do so. People that would prefer to live downtown can't live there because demand exceeds supply and most of the existing housing stock in downtown is spendy.

I agree that more would like to live downtown but don't see it as a majority.  I've been known to object to pushy marketing schemes on other subjects too.

Transportation options are another matter: in Tulsa auto ownership is a necessity. Combustion engines are known to cause pollution that is not healthy for us, petroleum will become an ever rarer commodity, and car ownership is expensive with payments, insurance premiums, repair and maintenance, fuel. On the average car ownership costs the owner $598 per month (when I had car payments mine was more like $798 per month). Providing reliable public transportation could alleviate this cost and most people could spend this money elsewhere (health care, college tuition, retirement, paying off a mortgage) and reduce the amount of emissions that all of us agree to breathe as a trade off to our dependence on cars. Additional savings are there when you consider the need to continually widen and improve streets (something that both you and the Artist touched on). 

I mostly agree with the above.  I knew a guy in the Navy that grew up in NYC and didn't learn to drive until he was in the Navy.  Being able to live without a car in a city and choosing to do so are not necessarily the same.  As I mentioned in one of my other posts, my cousin chose to have a car when living in Boston with readily available public transportation.

[Red Arrow]

Are you implying that suburbia is inherently unhealthy?

Absolutely yes.  Suburbia is inherently unhealthy.

I disagree, obviously.

[Townsend]

I wouldn't mind living downtown, but I'm actually in a pretty ideal location living near 31st & Yale.  90% of anything I need can be found within just over a mile radius, including legs & eggs and pin striping on my car or bikes if I were so inclined   It's literally sort of a micro city. 

You need sidewalks.

[Conan71]

You need sidewalks.

Who needs sidewalks when you have a mountain bike?

[Townsend]

Who needs sidewalks when you have a mountain bike?

Ride your bike up Yale to the grocery much?

[Hoss]

Ride your bike up Yale to the grocery much?

Stick it, Southie!

 

[Conan71]

Ride your bike up Yale to the grocery much?

Actually I haven't yet since I didn't have a good way to get things back home without plastic bags slinging around the handlebars.  Not wise!

[carltonplace]

Actually I haven't yet since I didn't have a good way to get things back home without plastic bags slinging around the handlebars.  Not wise!

Time to buy some Paniers...or get a child carrier from someone that doesnt use it any more and you can take Butch with you.

[Townsend]

Time to buy some Paniers...or get a child carrier from someone that doesnt use it any more and you can take Butch with you.

Then the bike friendly drivers in there old Chevy pickups can shout encouragement to Conan and Butch as they drive by.

[Conan71]

I've actually seen a few scary scenes with people on bikes on Yale between 31st & 21st recently.  Neither were well-lighted, one was actually riding in the left lane southbound after dark.  Actually, if you ride to 21st & Braden, via the 'hood, you can transit 21st & Yale safely.

Butch is welcome in Lowe's but they don't cotton to him in WMM or Reasor's.

[erfalf]

I hear everyone saying we don't want any "faux" urbanity sans Uptown Dallas. However, the project at Greenwood and Archer is EXACTLY like every other project in Uptown Dallas, and everyone is stoked about it. What gives? Not that I have heard all that much "raving" but The Metro is the same thing. Apartments around a parking garage. So is it that we just don't want Dallas, and we don't want to look like copy cats or is it that we are jealous? Or is it both and it just pisses us off so we curse Dallas' faux urbanity.

Everyone on here says one of the keys to downtown is to make it a destination. Something that distinguishes downtown from the rest of the city. Mostly because the population can't support the type of development people would like to see, so a majority of the patrons will have to "commute". So there must be something to make them commute past all the other similar offerings on the way and not stop before they get downtown. I get it. BOK is that destination. Nowhere else in town are people going to be able to get the experience, period (concert wise anyways).

While I don't particularly jive with the clientele of Uptown ($30K millionaires with no souls /morals or personalities, I can't say that it is all bad. I worked right next to West Village for a bit and was pretty impressed. It created the destination for the entire neighborhood. I think they have anchors that include Banana Republic, Brooks Brothers, Gap and at one point a Borders Book Store (we all know how that went). It also includes a small five screen theater. Thousands of apartments are within a few blocks in addition to the natural amenities that just boost the desirability of that particular local. I wasn't sure which came first, but I believe that transit stops were planned/completed before West Village opened. I assume that the transit stop helped spur the development, something our city leaders should be focusing on instead of arenas and ballparks (although they are nice to have, but not near the bang for the buck).

While I don't think that we need to replicate what other cities do, we do need to see what works and try to figure out why. Second, stop spreading the cities resources around. Be fair, but eventually you have to draw the line and say "look we can't maintain an ever expanding (geographically not population) city". Kind of pull a Portland with the fence line thing or something.

I think the conclusion that everyone should be reaching is that mass transit is the ONLY thing that will spur the type of development you all on this forum seem to want to see. I used to not believe it. I was a denier. But think when a new development is proposed, and one of the first issues is parking. Every space in downtown represents at least 300 square feet that could be used for something else. But, people around here will not lose their autos, justifiably so, until they are given a real alternative. What is the alternative now? Busses that are so few and far between that getting anywhere is a real time drain, considering you could have just hopped in your car and gotten there in half the time and not had to wait at the bus stop to boot.

Alright, that's my rant for the day. Cheers!

[jacobi]

It's not just the artist.  I hated that place.  It's as phoney as a shopping mall.

[Red Arrow]

It's not just the artist.  I hated that place.  It's as phoney as a shopping mall.

Dallas is a big place.  Give me a couple of road intersections so I can look on Google Maps please.

I've been through Dallas on US75/I-35E and the wacky transition many times but I don't stop except for traffic in front of me.

[rdj]

That's all fine and good but the arena and the ball field are still a complete bust 

What's neat is when the Drillers have a game during Tulsa Tough and seeing the fireworks during the Cat I/Pro race on Friday night.  Remember that Townsend?

I was there and it was a goose bump moment as I enjoyed a Miller High Life in a plastic cup outside Joe Momma's.

[Conan71]

I was there and it was a goose bump moment as I enjoyed a Miller High Life in a plastic cup outside Joe Momma's.

From a racer's perspective, that's an exciting venue but they only have Cat 1 through Cat 3 on Fridays and I'm just a lowly Cat 5.