(PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa

[AquaMan]

I wish they would sell it to me. The floating amphitheater is a victim of circumstance. It is in the wrong place, at the wrong time under the wrong management.

A paid for amenity being squandered.

[Conan71]

I wish they would sell it to me. The floating amphitheater is a victim of circumstance. It is in the wrong place, at the wrong time under the wrong management.

A paid for amenity being squandered.

The stagnant lagoon seemed to be an issue.  Stage lighting also attracted a large number of insects.

Where would you have located it if you could have been grand poobah at the time?

[Gaspar]

Remember seeing Cheap Trick there a couple of decades ago and having to duck into the bathrooms to get away from the stench.

[sauerkraut]

Yes~ I understand Kaiser is paying for it but as history shows sooner or latter taxpayers end up with some expense. IMO it's just more squandered tax  money. The jogging trail improvement was a good thing because the old trails were falling apart & crumbling, and the trails are what most people who come to River Park use so it's clear  that was a needed expense. BTW,  I also heard  that the city wants to rebuild route 66 or make it better- there always has to be some sort of money spending pet project going on be it "Vision-2525" or whatever other pet project comes up. Maybe "The Gathering Place" will turn out to be a good thing and  I hope it does, but I just think it's un-needed, then after the "Gathering Place" is built they will come back with something else to do, "let's build this or do that". As for the comments about Central Park, that was a big chunk of raw land they set aside when NY was young so residents would have someplace to go, I see no connection with that to Tulsa's issues. The West Bank River Park is hosting the Polar Bear Plunge on New Years Day at 1:PM  so it's a popular place for Tulsans. I'm thinking about doing the Polar Bear plunge again this year- I did it last year. The West Bank Park seems fine to me, there is  lots of parking, open areas, shelters, trails, so it's an   great place to  gather, Here's an idea,  why can't Kaiser pump money into that area for improvements more parking, make it bigger- the land is already there? Oh well it's JMO.

[TheArtist]

Yes~ I understand Kaiser is paying for it but as history shows sooner or latter taxpayers end up with some expense. IMO it's just more squandered tax  money. The jogging trail improvement was a good thing because the old trails were falling apart & crumbling, and the trails are what most people who come to River Park use so it's clear  that was a needed expense. BTW,  I also heard  that the city wants to rebuild route 66 or make it better- there always has to be some sort of money spending pet project going on be it "Vision-2525" or whatever other pet project comes up. Maybe "The Gathering Place" will turn out to be a good thing and  I hope it does, but I just think it's un-needed, then after the "Gathering Place" is built they will come back with something else to do, "let's build this or do that". As for the comments about Central Park, that was a big chunk of raw land they set aside when NY was young so residents would have someplace to go, I see no connection with that to Tulsa's issues. The West Bank River Park is hosting the Polar Bear Plunge on New Years Day at 1:PM  so it's a popular place for Tulsans. I'm thinking about doing the Polar Bear plunge again this year- I did it last year. The West Bank Park seems fine to me, there is  lots of parking, open areas, shelters, trails, so it's an   great place to  gather, Here's an idea,  why can't Kaiser pump money into that area for improvements more parking, make it bigger- the land is already there? Oh well it's JMO.

Apparently you have never been to NYC Central Park if you think it's only a big chunk of raw land and didn't involve, and still does involve, a lot of public and private money to make it what it is today.  Was in the news this year that another big donor was giving over a hundred million to the park and was touted as the largest donation to a city park in history (apparently they didn't know about Kaisers donations to Tulsa's parks).  Btw, a lot of the Riverparks recent trails improvements were paid for by Kaiser as well, easily to the tune of more than a hundred million.


(...then after the "Gathering Place" is built they will come back with something else to do, "let's build this or do that")  So? "they" whoever "they" actually is in this instance, would do that new park or no lol.  And what's this about "un-needed"?  Some may think that Riverparks is "un-needed".

[AquaMan]

The stagnant lagoon seemed to be an issue.  Stage lighting also attracted a large number of insects.

Where would you have located it if you could have been grand poobah at the time?

No use looking back. I did not have the knowledge of the area I do now. I can't speak for what constraints and beliefs they were operating under to place it there. I can say the way they did it sealed its fate. They created a lagoon with no moving water, did not control for varying water flows (later added a useless drain pipe on the north end) and then placed unduly harsh restrictions on its best use which was for concerts. Add in a parking lot that was hard to reach and bordered against an active railroad while not holding on to the land south of it allowing a concrete plant to move in and you just have to laugh at their naivete.

Now I would insist that it be moveable with anchoring spots along the two mile stretch of lake. If you know anyone, suggest they sell it to me cheap. Working with local artists who have seen the magnificent uses in other parts of the world for these platforms, I'll make it an attraction.

But they won't, they wouldn't allow its best uses without over regulating it and it would be yet another fiasco. Because of that I would move it upstream or downstream away from city and RPA efforts at control.

[AquaMan]

The jogging trail improvement was a good thing because the old trails were falling apart & crumbling, and the trails are what most people who come to River Park use so it's clear  that was a needed expense.

You keep saying this. Did it ever occur to you that the reason most people came to the park to use the trails was because THAT was all that was offered at the park for decades! And the only paths available? Once they added a kiddie park at 41st it was busy too. A new restaurant? Then it was busy. People use what is available to them.

[Conan71]

No use looking back. I did not have the knowledge of the area I do now. I can't speak for what constraints and beliefs they were operating under to place it there. I can say the way they did it sealed its fate. They created a lagoon with no moving water, did not control for varying water flows (later added a useless drain pipe on the north end) and then placed unduly harsh restrictions on its best use which was for concerts. Add in a parking lot that was hard to reach and bordered against an active railroad while not holding on to the land south of it allowing a concrete plant to move in and you just have to laugh at their naivete.

Now I would insist that it be moveable with anchoring spots along the two mile stretch of lake. If you know anyone, suggest they sell it to me cheap. Working with local artists who have seen the magnificent uses in other parts of the world for these platforms, I'll make it an attraction.

But they won't, they wouldn't allow its best uses without over regulating it and it would be yet another fiasco. Because of that I would move it upstream or downstream away from city and RPA efforts at control.

Cool concept. Poorly executed.

I wonder if the Creeks could make use of it down south at either of their complexes.  Meh, probably cheaper to build one there than to try and transport this one as I don't see how it would ever make it over the LWD.

[davideinstein]

The stagnant lagoon seemed to be an issue.  Stage lighting also attracted a large number of insects.

Where would you have located it if you could have been grand poobah at the time?

On Brady, between Boston and Cincinnati.

[SXSW]

No use looking back. I did not have the knowledge of the area I do now. I can't speak for what constraints and beliefs they were operating under to place it there. I can say the way they did it sealed its fate. They created a lagoon with no moving water, did not control for varying water flows (later added a useless drain pipe on the north end) and then placed unduly harsh restrictions on its best use which was for concerts. Add in a parking lot that was hard to reach and bordered against an active railroad while not holding on to the land south of it allowing a concrete plant to move in and you just have to laugh at their naivete.

Before the Gathering Place was proposed I always thought the concrete plant and adjacent festival park could be repurposed into a larger riverfront park with a lot of the same things that will be going in by the pedestrian bridge (thanks to Kaiser).  I still think an amphitheatre would be nice to have in this location, but on terraced land facing northeast toward downtown.  This is something Gathering Place will not have, nor will it likely have the large festivals like Oktoberfest that River West has with its open space.  So there is still a need, IMO, for a larger River West Park that could include the concrete plant site.  Similar to how Austin, TX has Auditorium Shores with an amphitheatre and arts center with festival open space across the river from downtown, and Zilker Park further down (which would be similar to what the Gathering Place will be).  

Auditorium Shores site plan with amphitheatre and dog park

[AquaMan]

Cool concept. Poorly executed.

....... Meh, probably cheaper to build one there than to try and transport this one as I don't see how it would ever make it over the LWD.

The bridges are the real constraint. The ones north I could do, but not sure about the 23rd street bridge and the LWD. Would have to be taken down to two pieces and floated at high water or moved by flatbed. Thats why it is practically valueless in its present state. Still could be cool.

[AquaMan]

Before the Gathering Place was proposed I always thought the concrete plant and adjacent festival park could be repurposed into a larger riverfront park with a lot of the same things that will be going in by the pedestrian bridge (thanks to Kaiser).  I still think an amphitheatre would be nice to have in this location, but on terraced land facing northeast toward downtown.  This is something Gathering Place will not have, nor will it likely have the large festivals like Oktoberfest that River West has with its open space.  So there is still a need, IMO, for a larger River West Park that could include the concrete plant site.  Similar to how Austin, TX has Auditorium Shores with an amphitheatre and arts center with festival open space across the river from downtown, and Zilker Park further down (which would be similar to what the Gathering Place will be).  

Auditorium Shores site plan with amphitheatre and dog park

I think you are probably correct in your surmisals. West bank of the river will always be a tough nut to market though. Refineries, railroads, concrete plants, polluted subsurface and nearby neighborhoods that hate large groups of people nearby. Bring those Austin planners up here!

[Conan71]

I think you are probably correct in your surmisals. West bank of the river will always be a tough nut to market though. Refineries, railroads, concrete plants, polluted subsurface and nearby neighborhoods that hate large groups of people nearby. Bring those Austin planners up here!

One thing neglected by SXSW, is that concrete plant is available for a golden handshake of $50 to $60 million, at least it was in 2007.  That was what was budgeted in the river tax proposal for that parcel, if I recall correctly.  Sorry, there's not a single parcel anywhere in Tulsa worth that sort of money, especially something to become a public space. Views aside, that's nothing more than grossly en-richening one individual or company on the backs of taxpayers.  I'm quite certain the city of Jenks didn't pay anywhere near that sort of ransom for the old McMichael Concrete property south of the Jenks bridge where the Aquarium and other assets now rest.   

[charky]

Well this runner and avid user of the trail system can't wait for the "Gathering Place".  Based on the drawings...I'm assuming you'll be able to peal off the main trail and run through the new park(s)...then connect back with the trails. Looks like a nice change of scenery to me.

[SXSW]

One thing neglected by SXSW, is that concrete plant is available for a golden handshake of $50 to $60 million, at least it was in 2007.  That was what was budgeted in the river tax proposal for that parcel, if I recall correctly.  Sorry, there's not a single parcel anywhere in Tulsa worth that sort of money, especially something to become a public space. Views aside, that's nothing more than grossly en-richening one individual or company on the backs of taxpayers.  I'm quite certain the city of Jenks didn't pay anywhere near that sort of ransom for the old McMichael Concrete property south of the Jenks bridge where the Aquarium and other assets now rest.   

Sadly if the owner still wants that kind of price it would have to be a larger public project, or funded by Kaiser.  I could see the city doing another river tax vote in the next couple years and it could include funds to develop a larger River West Park.  OKC spent millions in acquisition costs for its new downtown park so it is not unprecedented. 

Hopefully any kind of larger investment in a public park by the river on the west bank eventually includes a redevelopment of the adjacent government housing.  Many U.S. cities have torn down their sprawling Section 8 apartments and redeveloped them into actual neighborhoods with a mix of houses and apartments with a restored street grid.  The west bank will never be a popular area but it could be nicer than what is there now, and the area along 23rd is a gateway into the city off 75.