(PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa

[heironymouspasparagus]

Not sure where in Broken Arrow you are referring to, but other than the block off Main (that isn't residential,) I don't think there is any garbage cans in the alleys.   Same thing for parking and mail.   

Are there really neighborhoods in Tulsa with alleys between the houses like in Broken Arrow?

About the only place in Tulsa I know of with the "behind the house" garages is off memorial about 87th.  (West side of the road.)   I am sure there are more, but not that I can come up with easily.

West of downtown in BA there are alleys that are no longer used.  What I am saying is they should be there and used for the original purpose.

Look around in Maple Ridge North, up closer to 15th.  In particular, there is one stretch left, 15th to 17th, between Detroit and Madison, that still has the alley kind of intact.  This was common at one time, but we moved totally away from it after WWII.  Many (most) of those houses were built in the 20's....ish.

Most of the rest are gone - property owners extend their fence to the middle of what used to be the alley.   There are also a few railroad right of ways that were abandoned and just squatted by adjoining property owners.  South of the Golden Driller, to the southwest, from 21st to the BA, between Marion and Oswego.  "Angled" neighborhood there.  It continued south of there, but a little more difficult to see.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Yes.  Not extensive but there are.  I think about the area east of Utica on 6th Street.  I had an aunt and cousins that lived in this area for a time and there are alleyways in between rows of houses there.

I had forgotten about that area - had a nephew who lived near there for a while.


Peoria to Utica, north of 11th street.  Still there.

[rebound]

Yeah, I was thinking more about the houses in Sunset Terrace then in actual Maple Ridge.

That's the area I live in.  Sunset Terrace is now part of the Maple Ridge Association, but not part of the preservation district.  It is a little more eclectic than MR proper, but the homes (down to 31st) are still primarily from the 20's and some 30's.  Not all of them made it through the down times well, and there are a few that probably do need to be rebuilt, and numerous smaller ones that will no doubt be added to in some way.  (which has been done for years, and add to some of the character of the area.)  I personally would like to see some additional restrictions and/or covenants on new construction as while most are a good fit, there are some that are - at best - questionable with regard to the style/type of house that should be built in the area.

Crow Creek is pretty much the dividing line where the bigger change in home type happens as you move South.  North of there, the homes are primarily still '30s, and the street style matches the area North of 31st.  South of Crow Creek is a great area (and is booming, per my earlier post), but it is primarily post-WWII, and goes back to the grid street pattern, etc.

 

[rebound]

Not sure if this is considered a confirmation, but I live in Brookside south of 31st in between Peoria and Riverside... back before the project started they sent us mailer and had a public meeting about the 31st Street project and that's exactly what we were told would be the design.... two lanes of vehicle traffic, dedicated bike lanes and sidewalks with the idea being that it would connect the Park to Peoria and also Zink Park.

That will be great if they do cut the road to a two-lane and add the bike paths.  While I like the idea of a Crow Creek trail, I don't see that happening anytime soon, and the bike paths and new sidewalks will allow for much improved access between Brookside and the park.

[SXSW]

That will be great if they do cut the road to a two-lane and add the bike paths.  While I like the idea of a Crow Creek trail, I don't see that happening anytime soon, and the bike paths and new sidewalks will allow for much improved access between Brookside and the park.

Maybe we'll have both at some point.  It's shown in the Phase 2 plans which also include the Children's Museum.  Phase 3 is the mixed-use portion and AFAIK plans haven't been released for what will happen to the Crow Creek apartments except that it will be mixed-use, mixed-income housing.  Hopefully high density too.



From the TW:

Phases 2 and 3 of the park call for an extension of the park, a children's museum and mixed-use, mixed-income housing.

[Conan71]

Not sure where in Broken Arrow you are referring to, but other than the block off Main (that isn't residential,) I don't think there is any garbage cans in the alleys.   Same thing for parking and mail.   

Are there really neighborhoods in Tulsa with alleys between the houses like in Broken Arrow?

About the only place in Tulsa I know of with the "behind the house" garages is off memorial about 87th.  (West side of the road.)   I am sure there are more, but not that I can come up with easily.

There are some alleyways in the Cherry St. area

[TeeDub]

There are some alleyways in the Cherry St. area

Are any of the alleyways mentioned ever used for trash pickup/mail delivery?   Or just un-fenced right of way?

[Conan71]

Are any of the alleyways mentioned ever used for trash pickup/mail delivery?   Or just un-fenced right of way?

As I recall, I have seen trash cans or dumpsters as there are apartment buildings with the alleys behind them.  No idea on mail delivery.

There's an alleyway entrance just west of SMOKE. that their parking lot is right off of and another between Crushed Red & Roosevelts and one or two more on to the west of there.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Or worse yet, left as empty lots while the land grab owner waits it out to cash in a little later.  My thought on the zoning of that type activity - if a "developer" buys a place, bulldozes the old house, and says he is gonna build something, then there is a time limit placed on starting the project.  As part of the application process, there would be penalties associated if it is not done.  To the tune of say 25% of the value stated on the zoning/building change process per year of delayed start.  And it is not a cash payment, it is a 25% equity position per year.  That way, if there is a 4 year wait - some of those lots in BA have been left empty for way more than 4 years - the city is now owner, and sells it to someone who will build.  This is only for the "bulldozing" crowd of speculators.  The whiners would say, but what if they can't afford to start to build... then they couldn't really afford to bulldoze either, could they?

I share your frustrations about the many empty lots all around downtown BA. It is like they wanted to compete with south downtown for largest empty crater of any type. At least  you know they have to pay property tax and pay someone to mow them but also that means they're waiting on a bigger check. Some of those are zoned at a level which makes building anything cost prohibitive for most all except developers with deep pockets. 

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

I drive through there regularly, and we always  make it a point to drive through downtown, then up and down the surrounding streets.  Have some family out there, so  have a "vested interest" in what happens.  The east side of downtown has quite a few of those craftsmen style homes - that is the side where the more affluent lived in the past.  The west side is getting rid of old, small, bungalow styles that are in some cases very worn down.  Some of them are well worth renovating and just a general fixing up.  And when they are being bulldozed - more and more recently - they are being replaced by totally butt-ugly duplex, triplex, and quads that have no character and little architectural interest.  But they can say they are close to the Rose District!    Blech!!

Some of the newer developments look pretty good to me and much better than most of the plain ugly post-WW2 houses around there. There are some really neat old houses but they are spread out all over the area. Commerce Street has a nice stretch east of downtown with some Victorians. The whole area is a big hodgepodge of various styles and it doesn't flow well at all. There've been lots of empty lots going back to at least 2008 so massive empty lots in the area is nothing new.

There are a bunch of potentially neat houses which have been updated very poorly (such as adding vinyl siding over the bricks on a tudor cottage or painting some "interesting" pink/yellow colors that just don't work and lots of ugly carports, etc). One little block of Florence Park has more interesting homes than all of the downtown BA area. I hope they save all the charming classic homes, but I can't imagine that the downtown BA housing neighborhoods ever looked good or had any era you restore them to. Downtown BA housing neighborhoods feel a bit like a microcosm of homes built between Pearl District and East Tulsa (including way out where it's empty land), but all mixed together, and a bit of the worst of the worst. East Tulsa architecture isn't the best but at least the neighborhoods are mostly consistent so they have a certain consistent aesthetic.

I prefer the new cottages I've seen and townhomes over the blight that has been the norm for the area for so long.

[DTowner]

As I recall, I have seen trash cans or dumpsters as there are apartment buildings with the alleys behind them.  No idea on mail delivery.

There's an alleyway entrance just west of SMOKE. that their parking lot is right off of and another between Crushed Red & Roosevelts and one or two more on to the west of there.

A number of areas in the Pearl District still have alleys between back yards.

[Jeff P]

So ally talk aside...    .....does anyone have any idea when the Park -- and more importantly Riverside -- is supposed to open?

I think it's just been generically said "Spring" or "Summer" or something like that, right?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Are any of the alleyways mentioned ever used for trash pickup/mail delivery?   Or just un-fenced right of way?

They were used as access for trash and parking, but not mail delivery, and not any more - that was abandoned over time, ending for the most part back in the 60's.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Commerce Street has a nice stretch east of downtown with some Victorians. The whole area is a big hodgepodge of various styles and it doesn't flow well at all. There've been lots of empty lots going back to at least 2008 so massive empty lots in the area is nothing new.

The hodge-podge IS the history of BA and what provides the character.  "Doesn't flow well..."   You cannot imagine how grating that sounds to me - worse than fingernails on a blackboard!  What that means is homogenized, characterless, architecturally dead, post WWII tract carp.  Like what we still build mostly...     We need a little more "Bohemian" to make it interesting....



And zoning laws that prohibit vinyl siding anywhere, EVER!!   Even trying to sell the stuff should be at least a misdemeanor with minimum 1 year jail sentence!!   There is little that architecturally sucks the soul out of a house or neighborhood more, or faster, than vinyl siding!   Would be more visually interesting and probably increase the property value to have washers/dryers sitting on the front porch, and a car on concrete blocks right in the middle of the yard.


Many of those older BA houses (and Tulsa ones, too!) that have vinyl have nice siding underneath, but that requires some occasional maintenance.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

The hodge-podge IS the history of BA and what provides the character.  "Doesn't flow well..."   You cannot imagine how grating that sounds to me - worse than fingernails on a blackboard!  What that means is homogenized, characterless, architecturally dead, post WWII tract carp.  Like what we still build mostly...     We need a little more "Bohemian" to make it interesting....

I was trying to be polite. Maybe I should've just said it mostly looks like one of those country-towns that went by the wayside a long time ago with a few interesting homes here and there from mostly the ugly/cheap eras of housing, but the whole place is just depressing to me. It is a shame because I really wanted to buy a house or two there back around 2008/2010 as the houses were dirty cheap then but it was so hideous and lacked any sort of character and I knew I'd always hate the atmosphere so I opted for Renaissance Neighborhood which worked out really well and is even nicer now whereas (outside of the main "Rose District" strip), downtown BA neighborhoods still look and feel like a run down country town.

Renaissance is a hodgepodge collection of homes done up well with only a few out of place/ugly homes left. It feels more eclectic and less accidental with most homes built in the eras where they cared about beautiful architectur (so pre-1940s). I hope the Pearl District can really pick up because there are some gorgeous old Victorian and craftsman style homes just waiting for the right person to give them some care.