(PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa

[SXSW]

I'm not sure that backing up directly to the park is the most desirable spot.  You can't get directly to the park from your back yard (at least not easily), and you have to deal with the noise, lack of privacy, etc.  (For the houses that abut the old train line, the line is elevated, such that everyone using the trail looks down into your backyard.)  Overall however, you are spot on.  There have been numerous upgrades and teardowns in the neighborhood over the last year or so, and I expect that to continue.   In particular, the houses South of 31st street have seen amazing turnover in the last two years.  (North of 31st, the per-foot home price was already fairly high, but not so to the South of 31st.  The remodelers and re-builders have had a field day down there.)

I've noticed the infill construction south of 31st, reminds me of the Brookside area east of Peoria about 10 years ago.  I imagine that will continue as that area becomes even more desirable as it's also in the Eliot school boundary.

[Conan71]

Exciting times!  I can't wait to see all of this open and get to enjoy it with our grandson when we are visiting Tulsa!

[swake]

I'm not sure that backing up directly to the park is the most desirable spot.  You can't get directly to the park from your back yard (at least not easily), and you have to deal with the noise, lack of privacy, etc.  (For the houses that abut the old train line, the line is elevated, such that everyone using the trail looks down into your backyard.)  Overall however, you are spot on.  There have been numerous upgrades and teardowns in the neighborhood over the last year or so, and I expect that to continue.   In particular, the houses South of 31st street have seen amazing turnover in the last two years.  (North of 31st, the per-foot home price was already fairly high, but not so to the South of 31st.  The remodelers and re-builders have had a field day down there.)

I'm expecting those houses to be bundled together and replaced with 4-5 story condo buildings overlooking the park with parking on the bottom level. *IF* they can get approval over the inevitable complaints of the Maple Ridge homeowners group.

[cannon_fodder]

Are you suggesting that more desirable locations near public amenities should give way to denser construction?  Like, CHANGE?  That might let in the poors, even worse than a sidewalk.  Denied.

[rebound]

I'm expecting those houses to be bundled together and replaced with 4-5 story condo buildings overlooking the park with parking on the bottom level. *IF* they can get approval over the inevitable complaints of the Maple Ridge homeowners group.

I don't see that happening, at least not anytime soon.  There are numerous apartment complexes already existing just to the North, and the economics and practicality of acquiring enough of those lots to make that work seems doubtful.  And I assume there would have to be zoning changes.

And, honestly, I'd just hate to see that happen.  I am super in favor of the park, and thought the whole debacle around the sidewalks was stupid, but tearing down houses in one of oldest and coolest (IMHO) neighborhoods in Tulsa, to build apartments, would be to the long-term detriment of the area and even to the city.

[SXSW]

I'm expecting those houses to be bundled together and replaced with 4-5 story condo buildings overlooking the park with parking on the bottom level. *IF* they can get approval over the inevitable complaints of the Maple Ridge homeowners group.

Unless there is a zoning change (not going to happen) any higher density developments will be along and north of 21st and along Crow Creek.  I would like to see more 4-5 story condos built along Riverside and the MV trail north of 21st.

Zoning map


They could do some really cool things with apartments along Crow Creek incorporating a trail along the creek, something like this:

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

I don't see that happening, at least not anytime soon.  There are numerous apartment complexes already existing just to the North, and the economics and practicality of acquiring enough of those lots to make that work seems doubtful.  And I assume there would have to be zoning changes.

And, honestly, I'd just hate to see that happen.  I am super in favor of the park, and thought the whole debacle around the sidewalks was stupid, but tearing down houses in one of oldest and coolest (IMHO) neighborhoods in Tulsa, to build apartments, would be to the long-term detriment of the area and even to the city.

I agree. Well said. That is arguably the most interesting historic neighborhood in Tulsa and some of the houses along that trail (on Cincinnati) are especially interesting and many of them were relatively affordable the last time they were purchased. There's a good chance anyone who held on to them through all of this hopes to stay awhile.

I remember looking at one right on the trail that was around $200k back in 2012/2013. The ones around there that have sold since the Gathering Place was announced have been very pricey.  I hope the neighborhood can stick together and hold off any condo development. There's plenty of empty lots close to 21st including the big yard at Harwelden.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I don't see that happening, at least not anytime soon.  There are numerous apartment complexes already existing just to the North, and the economics and practicality of acquiring enough of those lots to make that work seems doubtful.  And I assume there would have to be zoning changes.

And, honestly, I'd just hate to see that happen.  I am super in favor of the park, and thought the whole debacle around the sidewalks was stupid, but tearing down houses in one of oldest and coolest (IMHO) neighborhoods in Tulsa, to build apartments, would be to the long-term detriment of the area and even to the city.

That is one of the more interesting neighborhoods we have left - that real people can even afford, sort of.  That is why it will be destroyed and replaced.  Look to Broken Arrow in the area around their downtown.  Bulldozers and multi-family crap to replace the old character of town.   But hey,...growth for growth's sake...!!

[TeeDub]

Broken Arrow?   Not sure if you have looked lately, but most of the houses near downtown aren't the beautiful craftsmen style homes of midtown.   While there are exceptions, there are a lot that may benefit from bulldozing.

Most more closely resemble the post WW2 era cottage, minus some of the needed upkeep.

[SXSW]

Broken Arrow?   Not sure if you have looked lately, but most of the houses near downtown aren't the beautiful craftsmen style homes of midtown.   While there are exceptions, there are a lot that may benefit from bulldozing.

Most more closely resemble the post WW2 era cottage, minus some of the needed upkeep.

Yeah, for instance, there is a big difference between the homes in Maple Ridge and the homes south of Crow Creek along Riverside.  That area is ripe for more teardowns/infill.

[swake]

Yeah, for instance, there is a big difference between the homes in Maple Ridge and the homes south of Crow Creek along Riverside.  That area is ripe for more teardowns/infill.

Yeah, I was thinking more about the houses in Sunset Terrace then in actual Maple Ridge.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Broken Arrow?   Not sure if you have looked lately, but most of the houses near downtown aren't the beautiful craftsmen style homes of midtown.   While there are exceptions, there are a lot that may benefit from bulldozing.

Most more closely resemble the post WW2 era cottage, minus some of the needed upkeep.

I drive through there regularly, and we always  make it a point to drive through downtown, then up and down the surrounding streets.  Have some family out there, so  have a "vested interest" in what happens.  The east side of downtown has quite a few of those craftsmen style homes - that is the side where the more affluent lived in the past.  The west side is getting rid of old, small, bungalow styles that are in some cases very worn down.  Some of them are well worth renovating and just a general fixing up.  And when they are being bulldozed - more and more recently - they are being replaced by totally butt-ugly duplex, triplex, and quads that have no character and little architectural interest.  But they can say they are close to the Rose District!    Blech!!

Or worse yet, left as empty lots while the land grab owner waits it out to cash in a little later.  My thought on the zoning of that type activity - if a "developer" buys a place, bulldozes the old house, and says he is gonna build something, then there is a time limit placed on starting the project.  As part of the application process, there would be penalties associated if it is not done.  To the tune of say 25% of the value stated on the zoning/building change process per year of delayed start.  And it is not a cash payment, it is a 25% equity position per year.  That way, if there is a 4 year wait - some of those lots in BA have been left empty for way more than 4 years - the city is now owner, and sells it to someone who will build.  This is only for the "bulldozing" crowd of speculators.  The whiners would say, but what if they can't afford to start to build... then they couldn't really afford to bulldoze either, could they?

Basically, instead of trying to keep the flavor of the neighborhood, they are turning it into a hodge-podge mess with no theme or unique flavor.  They are even getting rid of the alley ways, which is a classic feature of a long time/vintage neighborhood, and should return as a feature of any new residential development!  Keep the garages, mail delivery, and garbage cans at the back of the place so there can at least be some modest claim of architectural interest to a neighborhood.  A big garage door front facade, 'ornate' metal mail box at the street, and trash cans rolling down the road twice a week is NOT architecturally interesting!

But as with all things, zoning follows the money, so we will never see thoughtful, interesting, architecturally pleasing, development.

[TeeDub]

Keep the garages, mail delivery, and garbage cans at the back of the place so there can at least be some modest claim of architectural interest to a neighborhood.  A big garage door front facade, 'ornate' metal mail box at the street, and trash cans rolling down the road twice a week is NOT architecturally interesting!

Not sure where in Broken Arrow you are referring to, but other than the block off Main (that isn't residential,) I don't think there is any garbage cans in the alleys.   Same thing for parking and mail.   

Are there really neighborhoods in Tulsa with alleys between the houses like in Broken Arrow?

About the only place in Tulsa I know of with the "behind the house" garages is off memorial about 87th.  (West side of the road.)   I am sure there are more, but not that I can come up with easily.

[Hoss]

Not sure where in Broken Arrow you are referring to, but other than the block off Main (that isn't residential,) I don't think there is any garbage cans in the alleys.   Same thing for parking and mail.   

Are there really neighborhoods in Tulsa with alleys between the houses like in Broken Arrow?

About the only place in Tulsa I know of with the "behind the house" garages is off memorial about 87th.  (West side of the road.)   I am sure there are more, but not that I can come up with easily.

Yes.  Not extensive but there are.  I think about the area east of Utica on 6th Street.  I had an aunt and cousins that lived in this area for a time and there are alleyways in between rows of houses there.

[Jeff P]

They are almost done working on 31st between Riverside and Peoria.  I have heard that the new layout for that portion of 31st will be only two lanes (one each way) with dedicated bike lanes on each side and nice sidewalks.  If so, that will do a lot to connect the park to Brookside. 

Can anyone confirm the new final design for that section?

Also, they are building new sidewalks along the South side of 31st, East of Peoria over to, at least, Zink park.

Not sure if this is considered a confirmation, but I live in Brookside south of 31st in between Peoria and Riverside... back before the project started they sent us mailer and had a public meeting about the 31st Street project and that's exactly what we were told would be the design.... two lanes of vehicle traffic, dedicated bike lanes and sidewalks with the idea being that it would connect the Park to Peoria and also Zink Park.