A Water Shed Day

[AquaMan]

That's not really much different than our existing ultrasound law, unless I'm remembering it incorrectly.

Patrick, I'm not ready to make a direct correlation with teapartiers, conservatives and Nazis. I feel our craziness is more religious than party insistent.

Nathan, my understanding is that an external ultrasound was offered to the Virginia lawmakers but they insisted on an intra-vaginal ultra-sound (for a clearer picture). Since it was not with consent of the woman but at the command of the law, it is effectively legal rape for political reasons. I am not familiar with OK's law as regards this issue.

[nathanm]

Nathan, my understanding is that an external ultrasound was offered to the Virginia lawmakers but they insisted on an intra-vaginal ultra-sound (for a clearer picture).

The Virginia law does not specifically require transvaginal ultrasounds. However, it does require the doctor to describe the fetus in some detail, which is apparently only possible with a transvaginal ultrasound in the first couple of months of a pregnancy. What I've been told is that right around 10 weeks is when they can start getting a useful picture from a regular ultrasound.

[Gaspar]

Unfortunately, the emergence of any tertiary party is no longer possible.  It has been tried over and over again, but it always ends in destruction through a collaboration of both ruling parties and the media.  

The philosophical difference and divergence in the two parties swings like individual pendulums, sometimes in sync, sometimes in opposition.  The distance from the middle is an indicator of leadership.

Close together=strong leader.

Far apart=leadership vacuum.

In times of strong leadership from both parties we see collaboration and centrist philosophy.  When there is a leadership vacuum both parties attempt to dominate by moving towards the outside where most of the passion lies.  We start to see wild legislation designed more for political statement than for purpose.

As a whole the natural movement (liberal/conservative) over time is to shift incrementally towards more liberal policy.  With each irrevocable entitlement there is no other option, until the inevitable collapse.

I am a Libertarian.  No matter what a politicians party, I will tend to support those who do not promote slavery.  That is to say that they are not there to purchase votes by taking from one man and giving to another.  Because I believe that no man has a right to the life of another through force, this causes me to pull the lever for more republicans than democrats.  

Because the option of participation in Oklahoma outside of the two parties does not exist, I register republican, because it gives me the best chance of participation in this state.  Like Conan, many candidates disgust me, and I have no problem expressing that through correspondence and participation in political discourse. Unlike Conan, I refuse to give up what little control I have, and I would urge Conan to rethink his decision.  

If a home no longer exists for Conan in the republican party then I would urge him to register as a democrat.  

Conan is one of the most intelligent members of this forum IMO, and whether you agree with his political opinions or not, you must admit that he applies reason well, because of that his vote in primaries (no matter what party) will be guided by that reason, and therefore is very important to the process.  

Subtracting yourself from a portion of the process diminishes your ability to change the very things (and people) that you disagree with.  The more chances you have to vote on a candidate, the more power you have.  

D or R does not define you, it just gives you the power to define them!

[nathanm]

Unfortunately, the emergence of any tertiary party is no longer possible.  It has been tried over and over again, but it always ends in destruction through a collaboration of both ruling parties and the media.  

That's where you're wrong. It's perfectly possible, it just requires real reform in how we conduct our elections. It seems like something all of us who don't feel well represented by the two parties could cooperate on.

[Conan71]

That's where you're wrong. It's perfectly possible, it just requires real reform in how we conduct our elections. It seems like something all of us who don't feel well represented by the two parties could cooperate on.

That and if you can keep the over-zealous moon bats away from the media so they can't try and pin the movement as a bunch of mental defectives, that would go a long way in terms of credibility.  Any alternative movement seems to be quickly dismissed as "crazy" or "too out of step with reality".

We've seen how the Tea Party has been characterized as overly-religious, gun-toting tax evaders and Occupiers as aimless slackers.  Though I'm not really sure the Occupiers are a political movement so much as a social movement of sorts.

What's your take?

[Townsend]

That and if you can keep the over-zealous moon bats away from the media so they can't try and pin the movement as a bunch of mental defectives, that would go a long way in terms of credibility.  Any alternative movement seems to be quickly dismissed as "crazy" or "too out of step with reality".

We've seen how the Tea Party has been characterized as overly-religious, gun-toting tax evaders and Occupiers as aimless slackers.  Though I'm not really sure the Occupiers are a political movement so much as a social movement of sorts.

What's your take?

You'd have to keep the media away from the moonbats too.  I've seen days of coverage talking about the real housewives.  Our media doesn't seem to hunt down the gold lately.

[Gaspar]

That and if you can keep the over-zealous moon bats away from the media so they can't try and pin the movement as a bunch of mental defectives, that would go a long way in terms of credibility.  Any alternative movement seems to be quickly dismissed as "crazy" or "too out of step with reality".

We've seen how the Tea Party has been characterized as overly-religious, gun-toting tax evaders and Occupiers as aimless slackers.  Though I'm not really sure the Occupiers are a political movement so much as a social movement of sorts.

What's your take?

A group of individuals seeking better representation and responsibility from their politicians is BOARRRRRING.

A cult if extremists who own guns and hate this group or that group, now that's news!

Oh, and they're probably racist too.

[Conan71]

A group of individuals seeking better representation and responsibility from their politicians is BOARRRRRING.

A cult if extremists who own guns and hate this group or that group, now that's news!

Oh, and they're probably racist too.

"Sorry about the 'Up your's n*****' comment"

[heironymouspasparagus]

So let's just write a manifesto and get started.  Lot's of common ground here on many topics.

[RecycleMichael]

Conan is one of the most intelligent members of this forum IMO,

Get a room you two.

[cannon_fodder]

I'm in agreement with the barbarian.

I'm a registered Republican.  The Republican party in Oklahoma does very little that represents me. 

I firmly believe in seperation of church/mosque/temple and state.  I don't want religious icons at my capital, courthouse, or schools.  I don't want anyone else's religious values to dictate our civil society.

I belive the government should not tell me how to live unless whatever it is I'm going is infringing on someone elses right to live how they please.  To wit:  I don't care if two women want to marry each other.  I don't care if my neighbor wants to smoke pot on his porch all night.  In Oklahoma this tenenant of conservatism is often ignored to facilitate my previous complaint.

I believe in the smallest, most limited government needed to get the job done.  .  I believe governments job is to create an environment people want to live and business want to operate - managing BOTH aspects in harmony.  I believe it is a proper roll of government to create infrastructure, to educate the population, to provide necessary services to enable citizens to be or become productive members of our society, to supply a just and equitable court judicial system, and to protect the rights of its citizens.  I don't think we can dump $200,000,000.00 into a museum with no clear direction and no end in site to benefit a small portion of our state.  I don't think we can compete by throwing dollars at State jumping companies in an attempt to create jobs.  I don't believe we can legislate morality.   

I believe citizens should be involved with government and then get the hell out - not parachute into $100,000+ "jobs".  I believe a government job should be a secure and respected position, but not a gauranteed profitable career path...

Sorry to cut this rant short, but I will remain a registered member of a major party in Oklahoma because without that Oklahoma does not allow me to have a voice.  I would be forced to choose between the generally extreme candidates offered by the parties that are legal in Oklahoma.  I'd prefer to at least cast my protest vote in the primary to show WE THE PEOPLE want an intelligent and moderate society.

[Hoss]

Unfortunately, the emergence of any tertiary party is no longer possible.  It has been tried over and over again, but it always ends in destruction through a collaboration of both ruling parties and the media.  

The philosophical difference and divergence in the two parties swings like individual pendulums, sometimes in sync, sometimes in opposition.  The distance from the middle is an indicator of leadership.

Close together=strong leader.

Far apart=leadership vacuum.

In times of strong leadership from both parties we see collaboration and centrist philosophy.  When there is a leadership vacuum both parties attempt to dominate by moving towards the outside where most of the passion lies.  We start to see wild legislation designed more for political statement than for purpose.

As a whole the natural movement (liberal/conservative) over time is to shift incrementally towards more liberal policy.  With each irrevocable entitlement there is no other option, until the inevitable collapse.

I am a Libertarian.  No matter what a politicians party, I will tend to support those who do not promote slavery.  That is to say that they are not there to purchase votes by taking from one man and giving to another.  Because I believe that no man has a right to the life of another through force, this causes me to pull the lever for more republicans than democrats.  

Because the option of participation in Oklahoma outside of the two parties does not exist, I register republican, because it gives me the best chance of participation in this state.  Like Conan, many candidates disgust me, and I have no problem expressing that through correspondence and participation in political discourse. Unlike Conan, I refuse to give up what little control I have, and I would urge Conan to rethink his decision.  

If a home no longer exists for Conan in the republican party then I would urge him to register as a democrat.  

Conan is one of the most intelligent members of this forum IMO, and whether you agree with his political opinions or not, you must admit that he applies reason well, because of that his vote in primaries (no matter what party) will be guided by that reason, and therefore is very important to the process.  

Subtracting yourself from a portion of the process diminishes your ability to change the very things (and people) that you disagree with.  The more chances you have to vote on a candidate, the more power you have.  

D or R does not define you, it just gives you the power to define them!

Your last sentence, while accurate in Oklahoma, shouldn't need to be.

The closed primary system is arcane (what in Oklahoma isn't?) and needs to be scrapped.  Many states have moved away from this to either the Open or Semi-closed (which makes you vote your party, and if unaffiliated can vote either).

I have a little time after work tomorrow and I have to be on that side of town anyway, so I am doing the same (unregistering from my current party).  I've talked about doing it for some time, and now Conan has given me wherewithal to do so after our lunch conversation at BurnCo on Wednesday.

So while you may see this as a weakening of our stance, ultimately if enough people were to do this the rolls would reflect the defection and then candidates and the voter boards would wonder why so many people aren't voting.

Oklahoma needs to change the primaries to anything other than closed.  It's just silly, and is necessary for people like Conan who have become disenchanted with the party he chose.  I can't say that I blame him.  Most of the Democrats I follow aren't any different.  There is some moon-battery on the left side of the aisle, but the level of bat$shitedness on the right since 2007 is mind-boggling.

[Red Arrow]

The closed primary system is arcane (what in Oklahoma isn't?) and needs to be scrapped.  Many states have moved away from this to either the Open or Semi-closed (which makes you vote your party, and if unaffiliated can vote either).

I disagree. There is no reason a D should have a say in who the Rs want to put up for the general election and vs.  If one of the parties cannot field a candidate, too bad.   If you choose to disenfranchise yourself by not belonging to either party that's a choice you make. Making some revisions in the requirements for an independent person to run for office may be in order.

Open primaries would be like the voters in OKC electing the Mayor of Tulsa.

[Hoss]

I disagree. There is no reason a D should have a say in who the Rs want to put up for the general election and vs.  If one of the parties cannot field a candidate, too bad.   If you choose to disenfranchise yourself by not belonging to either party that's a choice you make. Making some revisions in the requirements for an independent person to run for office may be in order.

Open primaries would be like the voters in OKC electing the Mayor of Tulsa.

If that's the case then why are so many states opting to use it, or the semi closed?

http://www.fairvote.org/congressional-and-presidential-primaries-open-closed-semi-closed-and-top-two#.T0byNvWfE0U

[Red Arrow]

If that's the case then why are so many states opting to use it, or the semi closed?

I'm sure you will agree that not all political trends are the right thing to do.  This one just happens to be in your "agree" category.