Eliminate income taxes over 10 years?

[sauerkraut]

I am not very optimistic this will make more new businesses come to Oklahoma, because to replace the income tax, property tax will have to go up, so will other taxes and fees. At the end of the day sure we may cut some of the fat, and at the end of the day sure we might save a little money but its not going to be enough to offset the lose in revenue. Hell in the Governors Address she mentioned the very fact by talking about diversifying revenue streams.  That is political speak for shifting the taxes around, guess what citizens and businesses will make up that diversification and I don't necessarily mean new businesses.

A growing economy will bring in more money NOT less money to the state and tax cuts work to attract business and jobs. It's simple economics 101.. Cutting state fat & waste is a good idea too, but Mary Fallin will have to plan for the times inbetween before her plan is running at full bore. Mary Fallin has Oklahoma running like a well oiled machine as it is, we have some the lowest unemployment rates in the nation and low gas taxes and a low cost of living. The state's unemployment has tumbled ever since she came to power.

[erfalf]

I understand other taxes (more than likely property taxes) will go up. However, property taxes is a consumption based tax. If I don't want to pay as much I don't consume as much. It will be more of a shock for the older generations, but if phased in in a way that would soften the blow, it could work. From my experience in Texas, yes property taxes were about 3 times, roughly, what they are here. However, there was no problem finding affordable housing. I did notice that if you wanted to live in a good school district it was going to cost you. Property value were considerably higher in good school districts. I wonder if that is the side effect of letting communities spend money as they see fit. Of course not everything will improve for everyone, because for every entity that spends the money wisely, there will be some that don't. It creates competition, and punishes those that don't spend it wisely. It will create more responsive government.

A side note, the state still will collect 4.5% sales tax, so they would not be eliminating all funding.

The only downside I see is for small towns. I grew up in a small town, and I don't know for sure, but I would guess that the property taxes alone were not enough to support the school I went to. I believe (and I could be wrong) that the state somehow subsidized smaller schools. correct me if I'm wrong, but these are just 10 to 15 year old recolections from discussions with teachers at said school.

[AquaMan]

I never thought of ad valorem taxes as "consumption" taxes. What am I consuming? The more product you consume the more taxes you pay. But how do you consume a house? You may buy a house in a "sleeper" neighborhood where houses are small, well built and well located. Through no action other than having made a good choice the neighborhood increases in value, your property taxes increase and you haven't consumed any thing. And that happens to young, middle aged and senior citizens. Hell, the taxes rise even when the value of the house decreases! Suddenly, the state isn't bringing in enough to pay the bills and have cut most every consumption tax they can find to attract all those juicy low cost seeking, low labor seeking businesses...and they don't come. Then they'll come looking at things you have to have or cannot sell quickly. That means cars, licenses, property taxes etc. Bet on it.

Yep, you betcha'. Good plan if you don't look to far down the road or look too closely at states that have already swallowed the bait.

[erfalf]

I never thought of ad valorem taxes as "consumption" taxes. What am I consuming? The more product you consume the more taxes you pay. But how do you consume a house? You may buy a house in a "sleeper" neighborhood where houses are small, well built and well located. Through no action other than having made a good choice the neighborhood increases in value, your property taxes increase and you haven't consumed any thing. And that happens to young, middle aged and senior citizens. Hell, the taxes rise even when the value of the house decreases! Suddenly, the state isn't bringing in enough to pay the bills and have cut most every consumption tax they can find to attract all those juicy low cost seeking, low labor seeking businesses...and they don't come. Then they'll come looking at things you have to have or cannot sell quickly. That means cars, licenses, property taxes etc. Bet on it.

Yep, you betcha'. Good plan if you don't look to far down the road or look too closely at states that have already swallowed the bait.

You and I consume housing. While most will say it is a necessity, it does not mandate how much I spend. I have a choice on how much I spend.

What evidence do you have to assume that this path will lead to trouble. All evidence leads to the contrary. Look at the states that have no income taxes, they are some of the fastest growing in the county. I understand that Texas and Florida have other traits that lead to their desirability, but Wyoming and South Dakota. I'm not saying it is without question the best way, but there is something to it that is for certain. Whatever those states are doing seems to be working. I don't see why Oklahoma couldn't attain the growth that they have been experiencing.

Oklahoma has a lot working for it. It is the center of the county transportation wise, which I believe is why we are so heavily saturated with aerospace related jobs. Our climate is relatively comfortable. It is still extremely affordable to live here. the population (this is my opinion) still has a hard working pioneer attitude.

[carltonplace]

I am not very optimistic this will make more new businesses come to Oklahoma, because to replace the income tax, property tax will have to go up, so will other taxes and fees. At the end of the day sure we may cut some of the fat, and at the end of the day sure we might save a little money but its not going to be enough to offset the lose in revenue. Hell in the Governors Address she mentioned the very fact by talking about diversifying revenue streams.  That is political speak for shifting the taxes around, guess what citizens and businesses will make up that diversification and I don't necessarily mean new businesses.

I know right? If we really need to cut fat then maybe we should sell the governor's mansion or the limo or the capitol building.

But this isn't about living lean, cutting government waste or brinning more jobs...its about pandering to sauercraut

[AquaMan]

Nah, housing is not a consumable. It is taxed regardless of its value and not always proportionate to its size. I eat candy it is consumed and changed in the process. I live in a house and it is still a house when I leave. I buy a refrigerator and use it up and replace it. I use a house and may or may not use it up. Big differences to me.

In another thread I looked up those states that have zero income tax. The evidence is all over the internet. Sauer knows this. They are not the fastest growing in the country. There are seven. Texas was doing well and I believe the best one doing well was Maine. They are the outliers. Not too comparable with OK. The rest were experiencing some of the worst unemployment of the country. None of them showed employment above twenty-fifth in rankings. You can hardly grow fast when you can't keep your population employed.

Oklahoma does have a lot going for it in transportation, geography and weather. And our population is hard working, yet overweight and nicotine addicted. But that is balanced off with monolithic anti-progressive attitudes on politics, education, law, morality, labor and environment. We passed Right to Work a decade ago and it still isn't producing as advertised. We eliminated the estate tax which did nothing but reduce tax revenues. We made a compact with the tribes for gambling and instituted a lottery and again, no net gain in growth and promises for education unkept. We continue to think the biggest problems we face are due to guns (not enough and not visible enough), Democrats, liberals, gays, communism, unions and abortion. These attitudes don't do much to attract high paying industry. They attract low ballers that are looking for cheap labor, low regulation and low taxes. That puts us in competition with China, Mexico and Viet Nam and still, we can't seem to be low rent enough.

If zero income tax is the next big solution to our myopia then I'm a daisy. I love my home state but I am not blind and chauvinist.

[Red Arrow]

We continue to think the biggest problems we face are due to guns (not enough and not visible enough), Democrats, liberals, gays, communism, unions and abortion.

Gee, it sounds like the solution is easy.  Outlaw guns, the Republican party, conservatives, heterosexuals, embrace communism, unions and abortion.  Problem solved.  Who would have thought it was so simple?

[Red Arrow]

I Through no action other than having made a good choice the neighborhood increases in value, your property taxes increase and you haven't consumed any thing.

But..... I thought that increasing property values and the associated taxes were supposed to be a good thing.  Everyone wants their property value to go up.



Well, except me.  I don't plan to sell.  Even if I did, the replacement value of what I have would go up to match or exceed any selling price unless I stepped down in value/quality.

[Hoss]

Yep, this is a real good postive step for our state. Mary Fallin is doing an outstanding job, her bill is working it's way thru the state house. With no state income tax Oklahoma is ready to boom and became a powerhouse economy attracting jobs from other states. The state's income will grow as the economy expands and more people & companies move to Oklahoma, thus feeding a boom times.

You and shadows rooming together?  Oh wait, shadows actually lives here.  Nevermind.

[Jammie]

Nah, housing is not a consumable. It is taxed regardless of its value and not always proportionate to its size. I eat candy it is consumed and changed in the process. I live in a house and it is still a house when I leave. I buy a refrigerator and use it up and replace it. I use a house and may or may not use it up. Big differences to me.

In another thread I looked up those states that have zero income tax. The evidence is all over the internet. Sauer knows this. They are not the fastest growing in the country. There are seven. Texas was doing well and I believe the best one doing well was Maine. They are the outliers. Not too comparable with OK. The rest were experiencing some of the worst unemployment of the country. None of them showed employment above twenty-fifth in rankings. You can hardly grow fast when you can't keep your population employed.

Oklahoma does have a lot going for it in transportation, geography and weather. And our population is hard working, yet overweight and nicotine addicted. But that is balanced off with monolithic anti-progressive attitudes on politics, education, law, morality, labor and environment. We passed Right to Work a decade ago and it still isn't producing as advertised. We eliminated the estate tax which did nothing but reduce tax revenues. We made a compact with the tribes for gambling and instituted a lottery and again, no net gain in growth and promises for education unkept. We continue to think the biggest problems we face are due to guns (not enough and not visible enough), Democrats, liberals, gays, communism, unions and abortion. These attitudes don't do much to attract high paying industry. They attract low ballers that are looking for cheap labor, low regulation and low taxes. That puts us in competition with China, Mexico and Viet Nam and still, we can't seem to be low rent enough.

If zero income tax is the next big solution to our myopia then I'm a daisy. I love my home state but I am not blind and chauvinist.

I'm not so sure that the absense of a state income tax has much to do with unemployment right now. Texas was doing well, but seemed to do a lot of slipping during the recession. My own state doesn't have a state income tax and we have a very low unemployment rate. In fact, we have a shortage of workers.

[AquaMan]

Gee, it sounds like the solution is easy.  Outlaw guns, the Republican party, conservatives, heterosexuals, embrace communism, unions and abortion.  Problem solved.  Who would have thought it was so simple?

Who? Our current state legislators!

Even if all their problems were solved with their legislation they would continue to refine them ad infinitum. Because that is easier than solving problems that they don't even understand. Economics, science etc. Its not the accuracy of their shooting that's harming the state, its the definition of their targets.

[AquaMan]

But..... I thought that increasing property values and the associated taxes were supposed to be a good thing.  Everyone wants their property value to go up.



Well, except me.  I don't plan to sell.  Even if I did, the replacement value of what I have would go up to match or exceed any selling price unless I stepped down in value/quality.

Another example of unintended consequences is making smart decisions on real estate choices 30 years ago.  I have resigned myself to stepping down. Well, the bank, Home Depot and the city appraiser are influencing me towards that decision.

[Red Arrow]

Who? Our current state legislators!

Even if all their problems were solved with their legislation they would continue to refine them ad infinitum. Because that is easier than solving problems that they don't even understand. Economics, science etc. Its not the accuracy of their shooting that's harming the state, its the definition of their targets.

Therefore, the required change in targets: Outlaw guns, the Republican party, conservatives, heterosexuals, embrace communism, unions and abortion.

[Red Arrow]

Another example of unintended consequences is making smart decisions on real estate choices 30 years ago.  I have resigned myself to stepping down. Well, the bank, Home Depot and the city appraiser are influencing me towards that decision.

Home Depot? Do they want your property or is it just becoming too expensive to maintain?

Edit: darn keyboard skipped an "o" in too.   

[AquaMan]

I'm not so sure that the absense of a state income tax has much to do with unemployment right now. Texas was doing well, but seemed to do a lot of slipping during the recession. My own state doesn't have a state income tax and we have a very low unemployment rate. In fact, we have a shortage of workers.

Sauer thinks there is a relationship and he has no basis for that. Neither do the legislators. This is a philosophical stand that conservatives find attractive and instinctually logical. It may work, it may be genius but right now there is no basis for doing it during a time when budgets are already constrained.

Texas is a state with at least 5 large metropolitan cities (one of them the third largest in the country), huge population, Gulf ports, a border with another country, and the headquarters for major industries like oil and technology. Not a comparable for OK.

What state are you in? And what kind of employment? The only two zero income tax states I found with relatively low unemployment were Texas and Maine. Maine was #9 iirc. I'll check the thread that Sauer started awhile back pimping this issue.