"If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."

[DolfanBob]

At best, Zimmerman was an idiot.

And it is likely worse than that...

An idiot with a gun. That never happens....

[heironymouspasparagus]

An idiot with a gun. That never happens....

One of thousands....perhaps tens of thousands!

Compared to tens of millions with guns who aren't idiots.  And use them responsibly every day...

Two and a half million times a year to successfully defend themselves or others.   (Unlike this clown.)

[Hoss]

One of thousands....perhaps tens of thousands!

Compared to tens of millions with guns who aren't idiots.  And use them responsibly every day...

Two and a half million times a year to successfully defend themselves or others.   (Unlike this clown.)

Sort of on the subject...got my CC certificate yesterday.  Yes!  Me!  A left-leaning moderate-to-liberal who doesn't think Obama is out to get our guns and who is a responsible gun owner!

Of course now it's time for the three month wait for TCSO, OSBI and the Feds.  Yay!

[heironymouspasparagus]

Sort of on the subject...got my CC certificate yesterday.  Yes!  Me!  A left-leaning moderate-to-liberal who doesn't think Obama is out to get our guns and who is a responsible gun owner!

Of course now it's time for the three month wait for TCSO, OSBI and the Feds.  Yay!

I only had to wait about 3 weeks, and that was around the Big Holidays!  So maybe you won't have to wait so long.

Oh, and congratulations!  You now join the ranks of those who feel they do have a God given right to self-defense (no matter ones belief concerning God...)  The more intelligent, thoughtful people who do this, the better!  (Even if some of them are RWRE....)


As for Obama, I can only take what he has said in the past at face value.  But at least he is smart enough to realize it is a non-starter at this time and place.  Hopefully it will remain that way....

[AquaMan]

I only had to wait about 3 weeks, and that was around the Big Holidays!  So maybe you won't have to wait so long.

Oh, and congratulations!  You now join the ranks of those who feel they do have a God given right to self-defense (no matter ones belief concerning God...)  The more intelligent, thoughtful people who do this, the better!  (Even if some of them are RWRE....)


As for Obama, I can only take what he has said in the past at face value.  But at least he is smart enough to realize it is a non-starter at this time and place.  Hopefully it will remain that way....

A God given right to self defense for sure. But I don't remember any scriptures relating to guns.

[Red Arrow]

But I don't remember any scriptures relating to guns.

Might have something to do with the fact that the scriptures were written before gunpowder was invented by the Chinese.

[heironymouspasparagus]

A God given right to self defense for sure. But I don't remember any scriptures relating to guns.

None that I have found either.  But what is appropriate is the use of the best means available at any given point in time for the history of the world.  400,000 years ago, that was a rock.  Today it is a Sig Sauer, .40.  Or Glock.  Or my "old guy" personal favorite - 1911A1, .45 auto.  (If it was good enough for the worlds "Greatest Generation" to help win WWII, it is plenty good for me!)  100 years from now, it may be a ray gun or a personal particle accelerator.


And if you believe in the idea that your life IS a God given gift, then you therefore must believe that it is worth defending by whatever 'best method' is available, and if you don't use that best available method, then you are belittling that gift, and it's giver.  Not to mention short changing yourself, your family, and friends who are all affected at least somewhat adversely should the worst happen to you.

If all I had was a rock or a stick, that is what I would use.  Luckily, I can afford just a little bit better.


Way off in otherville - ever notice how in the Bourne Identity (2002 version), the Professor's gun changes from a Walther P5C to a CS 100 when seen in the snow?

[Hoss]

A God given right to self defense for sure. But I don't remember any scriptures relating to guns.

yep, so back then, the playing field was level.  Nobody had guns.

However now, an intruder may or may not have a firearm.  And even so, the Castle Doctrine states I can still use lethal force in defending my home if I have a reasonable suspicion that intruder is in the residence by force and intends to use force or violence, whether or not that individual has a firearm.

I have a 66 year old mother who is disabled.  I want to know that I'm covered if some dumbass comes walking in my home intent on doing harm to her or myself.  I also want to have that same feeling of security when I'm wheeling her around to places here and there around town, knowing that I have the Bersa on my right hip.

As my instructor yesterday said...he hopes none of us ever has to discharge a weapon for any other reason than for target practice at the range.  I'm by no means a gun freak but I don't wish to bring a knife to gunfight.  That's for sure.

[nathanm]

100 years from now, it may be a ray gun or a personal particle accelerator.

This guy has the t-shirt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoli_Bugorski

Hoss, I prefer the knife:

[AquaMan]

Wow. You guys read way more into that remark than I intended. Why is it that you both feel compelled to make such intricate defenses of what everyone pretty much agrees upon, that one has a right to defend ones life against the aggression of others? Does adding the words "with a gun" suddenly trigger some Manchurian Candidate response?

The bible often speaks of turning the other cheek, let the first among you without sin cast the first stone, etc. But of course they didn't have the NRA to 'splain reality to them, eh? My 82 year old mom now is fearful of every cashier, stockboy, dishwasher and laborer because some nut helping her get her CC license told her these type folks have all formed some kind of loosely knit, nefarious criminal organzation that watches customers, steals their credit card numbers and watches to see who hides their guns in their car trunks before entering retail stores so they can break in and steal them while they shop. A strong argument against storeowners asking for no guns in their stores I guess. Kind of like the rube goldberg story the NRA passed around to go after the attorney general.

Just pulling the trigger dontcha' know.

[AquaMan]

Might have something to do with the fact that the scriptures were written before gunpowder was invented by the Chinese.

Ah, had the Jews discovered gunpowder first. What a different world. Oy vay.

They not only invented it but I saw the other day they made a barrage weapon of rocket mounted arrows that worked quite well.

[Hoss]

Wow. You guys read way more into that remark than I intended. Why is it that you both feel compelled to make such intricate defenses of what everyone pretty much agrees upon, that one has a right to defend ones life against the aggression of others? Does adding the words "with a gun" suddenly trigger some Manchurian Candidate response?

The bible often speaks of turning the other cheek, let the first among you without sin cast the first stone, etc. But of course they didn't have the NRA to 'splain reality to them, eh? My 82 year old mom now is fearful of every cashier, stockboy, dishwasher and laborer because some nut helping her get her CC license told her these type folks have all formed some kind of loosely knit, nefarious criminal organzation that watches customers, steals their credit card numbers and watches to see who hides their guns in their car trunks before entering retail stores so they can break in and steal them while they shop. A strong argument against storeowners asking for no guns in their stores I guess. Kind of like the rube goldberg story the NRA passed around to go after the attorney general.

Just pulling the trigger dontcha' know.

Which is why I'll never be part of the NRA.  They spread misinformation to promote their own agenda.

Why is it that CC license holder = NRA member in most people's eyes?  I know of at least one other forum member who thinks the same as I do.

And my defense wasn't intricate.  I was merely pointing out the comparison you make about no guns and Bible times self defense as it relates to now.  Scriptures has no part in my self defense.  Self defense does.

[Hoss]

This guy has the t-shirt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoli_Bugorski

Hoss, I prefer the knife:

I wonder if 2A has one of those.  If not, I'll see if cheaperthandirt does.   

[AquaMan]

Seriously, I only made the Bible reference because H used the phrase "God given right" in the same discussion as guns. Nothing more. No political statement, no anti gun statement, nothing. It seemed incongrous to me. The God I am familiar with isn't a gun kind of deity. Swords, spears, rocks, burning pits, yeah but only for those really bad Egyptians and Romans. But man, H, did you go off or what?

As far as safety, I'm still skeptical that guns are the answer for me. Mass murderers like the Manson clan didn't seem to need them. No amount of guns in the hands of the Norwegian murderer would have changed the odds. He picked them off from afar. Kennedy had lots of gun carrying agents nearby. The odds of any of you ever seeing a door crashing, gun carrying crazy is really pretty low. I actually walked in on a robbery at a convenience store and walked away from same without any need of a gun. It would have complicated the situation actually. But, I understand the law, the fear, the attraction and the rationale for those who do want them. Not a batttle I am interested in.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Wow. You guys read way more into that remark than I intended. Why is it that you both feel compelled to make such intricate defenses of what everyone pretty much agrees upon, that one has a right to defend ones life against the aggression of others? Does adding the words "with a gun" suddenly trigger some Manchurian Candidate response?

The bible often speaks of turning the other cheek, let the first among you without sin cast the first stone, etc. But of course they didn't have the NRA to 'splain reality to them, eh? My 82 year old mom now is fearful of every cashier, stockboy, dishwasher and laborer because some nut helping her get her CC license told her these type folks have all formed some kind of loosely knit, nefarious criminal organzation that watches customers, steals their credit card numbers and watches to see who hides their guns in their car trunks before entering retail stores so they can break in and steal them while they shop. A strong argument against storeowners asking for no guns in their stores I guess. Kind of like the rube goldberg story the NRA passed around to go after the attorney general.

Just pulling the trigger dontcha' know.

I wasn't defending - just explaining the rationale.  It is not really for you so much as any others who might randomly be surfing by and read the thread.  General enlightenment for the masses, and all that...


As for the stock boys...well, it certainly isn't every one.  Or even very many of them.  There have been isolated incidences and the idea she might get caught up in one of those is the fear she has.  You look at it from an entirely different perspective, so don't be too hard on her.  The "weaker" one feels, the more fearful one becomes.

It has been decades since I carried a gun on any kind of regular basis, but the sister and brother in law of guy I work with were murdered in New Mexico at the Cracker Barrel, and burned in their RV (big news a couple years ago).  I was in very casual process of getting concealed carry, but accelerated the process due to similarities with those people (same age, same type of travel preferences, same paths on some trips, etc.)  So, I got serious and finished it up.  While no guarantee, there are at least somewhat better odds of being able to defend myself.  In past, I would not have thought about it that much, but since Governor Brewer in Arizona was too busy worrying about illegal aliens than about the convicted murderer's in her prison system, I figured I better help myself, since the scum that did this are younger, stronger, more agile, and extremely violent - IOW, I need all the "edge" I can get.  Your mother probably worries about that stuff, too.


And the criminal organizations aren't the loosely knit...they are well organized.  


As for God given right - I said that was one of self defense, without even mentioning a gun - it applies to any means available and/or necessary.  If I went to a pistol fight, I want an RPG and 100 yards between us - something appropriate to the threat.... I will use teeth if I have to, though.  Luckily, in spite of advanced age, and a long history of enjoying a lot of Coca-Cola and Dr. Pepper, I still have all my own!!  And the sharp points I filed on them make a pretty good weapon!  (Just kidding...)