Ikea and Costco in BA?

[heironymouspasparagus]

This is great! Hopefully they will build new ones with giant parking lots instead of going into all of the empty big box stores that are scattered around!

Growth for growth's sake...rather than getting a clue.   Gotta get me more volume in a box!!


If for some unknowable reason, the state was able to grow 300%, bring in lots of new industry - even partially fill Mid-America Industrial Park - where is all the infrastructure going to come from?  We have almost doubled our population in the last 30 years or so, and even when I-44 here and I-40 in OKC get completed, we will STILL be 20 + years behind just on road construction - not to mention everything else that has fallen so horribly behind!!  And if 2011 and 2012 showed nothing else, do we not, even now, start to understand how close to the edge we are on available water?   If we triple everything, that becomes a serious mega-problem!

[nathanm]

If for some unknowable reason, the state was able to grow 300%, bring in lots of new industry - even partially fill Mid-America Industrial Park - where is all the infrastructure going to come from?  We have almost doubled our population in the last 30 years or so, and even when I-44 here and I-40 in OKC get completed, we will STILL be 20 + years behind just on road construction - not to mention everything else that has fallen so horribly behind!!  And if 2011 and 2012 showed nothing else, do we not, even now, start to understand how close to the edge we are on available water?   If we triple everything, that becomes a serious mega-problem!

We are in luck. Unlike many other cities, our problems can all be solved with money, and not really even (a lot) more money, just more effective use of the money we're already spending. There are plenty of locations we could get more water from, for example. We could spend what we're probably going to spend on yet another streets package on trolley lines and have 15 miles of double track line, the equipment, stations, and the rest in a couple of years.

Many other cities don't have that luxury. They have no more sources of water, there is no place for them to put a train or a new highway, they have no more easily developed land. They don't have active and involved non-profits spending gobs of money making their cities better places to live. They don't have the massive momentum that we have in turning parts of this city into a place that attracts young people. We have so much going for us, but we seem content to not use (much) public money to help that process any further along. We'd rather, as a whole, build more roads and bribe a few more retailers into town with their competitors' tax money.

[heironymouspasparagus]

We are in luck. Unlike many other cities, our problems can all be solved with money, and not really even (a lot) more money, just more effective use of the money we're already spending. There are plenty of locations we could get more water from, for example. We could spend what we're probably going to spend on yet another streets package on trolley lines and have 15 miles of double track line, the equipment, stations, and the rest in a couple of years.

Many other cities don't have that luxury. They have no more sources of water, there is no place for them to put a train or a new highway, they have no more easily developed land. They don't have active and involved non-profits spending gobs of money making their cities better places to live. They don't have the massive momentum that we have in turning parts of this city into a place that attracts young people. We have so much going for us, but we seem content to not use (much) public money to help that process any further along. We'd rather, as a whole, build more roads and bribe a few more retailers into town with their competitors' tax money.

All that other stuff is easy, like you said.  Except for the water.  Most of future growth is going to be in Tulsa and/or OKC and suburbs of each.  And water here - going to 3 times what we need now??   I just can't see where it would come from.  We are all surface water supplies, and those were merely adequate through 2011-2012.  And central OK was in a huge mess...from Edmond down to Norman, they were scrambling big time, and those two years drought really wasn't the kind of stress that tripling the population/business etc would be.  Plus Texas is suing us to get some of ours...they have been denied so far.

Central OK, water needs to more than double in next 50 years.  By 2030, needs will exceed water supplies.  By 2020, transport facilities will be overextended.

http://www.okc.gov/utilities/rrwss/index.html

Gonna take a whole lot more than the kind of leadership we have had in recent years for us to grow even 50% from here....

Almost forgot...Norman has had to shut down about 1/3 of their wells due to excess arsenic (greater than the old 50 standard).  They get most of it from Lake DirtyBird....er, uh, Lake Thunderbird now.  Tastes muddy a lot of the time.

[Oil Capital]

Growth for growth's sake...rather than getting a clue.   Gotta get me more volume in a box!!


If for some unknowable reason, the state was able to grow 300%, bring in lots of new industry - even partially fill Mid-America Industrial Park - where is all the infrastructure going to come from?  We have almost doubled our population in the last 30 years or so, and even when I-44 here and I-40 in OKC get completed, we will STILL be 20 + years behind just on road construction - not to mention everything else that has fallen so horribly behind!!  And if 2011 and 2012 showed nothing else, do we not, even now, start to understand how close to the edge we are on available water?   If we triple everything, that becomes a serious mega-problem!

Whoahh there...   Who has "almost doubled [their] population in the last 30 years or so..."??

City of Tulsa population:
1950    182,740       28.5%
1960    261,685       43.2%
1970    331,638       26.7%
1980    360,919       8.8%
1990    367,302       1.8%
2000    393,049       7.0%
2010    391,906       −0.3%
Est. 2012    393,987       

The City of Tulsa has doubled its population in the last 55 years or so, not 30.  In the past 30 years or so (32 years to be precise), Tulsa's population has increased only 9.2%

Tulsa Metropolitan Area population:

1960    503,090       
1970    574,229       14.1%
1980    711,652       23.9%
1990    761,019       6.9%
2000    859,532       12.9%
2010    937,478       9.1%
Est. 2012    951,880       1.5%

The Tulsa metro area has almost doubled its population in the past 50 years or so, not 30.  In the past 32 years, the metro population has increased 33.8%.

[Conan71]

He has a tendency to mistake his own opinion for fact.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Whoahh there...   Who has "almost doubled [their] population in the last 30 years or so..."??

City of Tulsa population:
1950    182,740       28.5%
1960    261,685       43.2%
1970    331,638       26.7%
1980    360,919       8.8%
1990    367,302       1.8%
2000    393,049       7.0%
2010    391,906       −0.3%
Est. 2012    393,987       

The City of Tulsa has doubled its population in the last 55 years or so, not 30.  In the past 30 years or so (32 years to be precise), Tulsa's population has increased only 9.2%

Tulsa Metropolitan Area population:

1960    503,090       
1970    574,229       14.1%
1980    711,652       23.9%
1990    761,019       6.9%
2000    859,532       12.9%
2010    937,478       9.1%
Est. 2012    951,880       1.5%

The Tulsa metro area has almost doubled its population in the past 50 years or so, not 30.  In the past 32 years, the metro population has increased 33.8%.

Got me!  Couple things went wrong with that, leaving my 'guesstimate' way off.  Started with 1970 to the 2010 numbers on this page for the state population - not just Tulsa - the first lack of clarity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Oklahoma

Second fuzziness; went through the "ten, twenty, thirty" year thing in my mind and stopped before getting to 2010 (maybe said 30 twice?) - and then slipped a couple more years for the 2012 estimate of 3.814 million.  And when I did the guesstimate of doubling, I didn't use the calculator - should actually be 50% increase over those 40 years.  Playing fast a loose with the mental calculations...  I used the calculator today.


Which brings us up to date and back to the real point - and makes what I was saying even more problematic.  We as a state have grown about 50% in the last 40 years (is that better?).  And we now have water issues starting to poke through the curtain (allusion to "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...").  As noted in a couple previous posts.

What would happen if we "got our way" and grew 300% in the next 40 years?  Or even just 100%??  The whole question and discussion of infrastructure of all types for this state is the 800 lb gorilla.  Couldn't find a comprehensive history of water usage for OK yet (still looking)...if anyone knows of one, would appreciate the link.  The results of the drought are still being felt here.

300% growth in 40 years would be an incredible mess, considering the "internecine warfare" we engage in in the state between different areas.  OKC will get the roads and big chunks of infrastructure, while at the same time suing the snot out of the Indians for the water in southeast OK.  Tulsa area will continue to suck hind **** for development of everything from education to roads to hat pins.  Texas will keep suing us to force us to sell them water, since they actually have been getting that mega-growth that we are lusting after.  And Arkansas just keeps on dumping their chicken carp on us. 

What I would like to do is get people to start to think about other approaches than standard "growth" tactics to help develop and improve the state related to incomes, standard of living, quality of life, education, healthcare, and yes - infrastructure, etc.  All the things we are #46 at in the nation.  First, we should stop the slipping of all those things, and reverse the trends/path we are on now.  It AIN'T gonna happen with "business as usual" method of just attracting some more call centers, big box stores, or ANY other minimum wage type businesses.  We are only a little under 4 million people, with amazing resources, people, and talent in the state...we should be as rich per capita as Dubai, or Kuwait.

In case there is lack of clarity up to this point - that previous paragraph has the big points I would like for readers to take away from this.

Don't get me wrong about big box stores - I would love to have a Costco here.  They pay noticeably better than the other big boxers, and treat employees noticeably better, according to all the surveys/studies.  It would be a breath of fresh air.  But they DID open their first store in a very much more progressive city and state - Seattle, WA, so I guess that would be expected more than something from Arkansas.  I put up the definition of "progress" elsewhere - good read for Oklahoman's of all ages.

But, good shot at trying to divert attention....will now work even harder to be more concise in the future.


As an aside, Texas population has gone from 11 million in 1970 to 25 million in 2010.  They passed our current population in 1910.  So if we really want to participate in the kind of action I keep hearing blathering about - the only rational choice would be to move to Texas - it's already happening there!
https://www.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/census.html

[heironymouspasparagus]

He has a tendency to mistake his own opinion for fact.

Awwwwww....how cute..!!!

[BKDotCom]

I think they took a lot of flack over their position on rifles after the Newtown shooting.   It was more convenient than Academy, but I haven't been back since they took that stance.

I just came across this

Editor of Guns & Ammo forced out after publishing pro-regulation column
Jim Bequette issues apology, saying: 'I thought it would generate a healthy exchange of ideas on gun rights ... I was wrong'

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/07/editor-guns-ammo-regulation-column

[heironymouspasparagus]

Blowbama has his EPA goons closing the last lead smelter in the country at Herculaneum, MO.  After all those government agencies stocked up on billions of rounds of ammo....

Yeah, that will affect the price and reduce the already tight supply of bullets, but just wait till you buy a battery for your car!

[DowntownDan]

I would definitely choose Costco over Sams but I'm not sure I'm willing to drive that far into South Tulsa hell for it.

[Red Arrow]

I would definitely choose Costco over Sams but I'm not sure I'm willing to drive that far into South Tulsa hell for it.

Please stay away.  There is too much traffic already.  If people stop shopping along S. Memorial, maybe developers will go elsewhere.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Please stay away.  There is too much traffic already.  If people stop shopping along S. Memorial, maybe developers will go elsewhere.

You against progress now??


Luddite!

[Gaspar]

Please stay away.  There is too much traffic already.  If people stop shopping along S. Memorial, maybe developers will go elsewhere.

Not likley. 

[sgrizzle]

Please stay away.  There is too much traffic already.  If people stop shopping along S. Memorial, maybe developers will go elsewhere.

In this reality, do unicorns fly or are the confined to the ground?

[Red Arrow]

In this reality, do unicorns fly or are the confined to the ground?

They are confined to the ground following a herd of turtles.