Repeal the "Stand Your Ground" Laws

[Teatownclown]

That somebody can claim self defense out of a "belief" that they're in danger ...

Go figure.

[Teatownclown]

Sorry, I meant white straight people.  I understand the plight of the white man these days quite well.  Do you?

No. Obviously not. Splain it to me....

[Conan71]

The law specifically bars someone whose situation is covered by the SYG law from being arrested unless there is probable cause to believe that SYG does not apply.

Define probable cause.  Keep in mind a cop may define it and apply it differently regardless what you think.  Keep in mind another cop will have yet another reason to form probable cause.

That's really subjective from one cop to another, much like traffic laws.  Different cops even interpret conceal carry differently.  

I'd still love to know where the probable cause was when Kenneth Gumm kept backing away from the guy he shot and warning he would shoot him while brandishing his pistol in a public parking lot.  He even attempted to retreat and warned the soon-to-be-deceased he would shoot if he didn't back off.  Deceased kept coming toward him.  Gumm has a manslaughter felony on his permanent record.

A different DA might have ruled entirely opposite, or a different police investigator may have said there was no probable cause to the contrary.

"Probable cause" is not concrete, nor easily defined.

[Conan71]

No. Obviously not. Splain it to me....

Sorry sonny, use the Googlez.  I'm out for the weekend.

[nathanm]

Define probable cause.

OK, if you believe Wiki's citation: "a reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true"

Probable cause is a higher standard than reasonable suspicion.

"Probable cause" is not concrete, nor easily defined.

There is a fairly large body of case law that does exactly that.

[Teatownclown]

Sorry sonny, use the Googlez.  I'm out for the weekend.

WAIT! Don't RUN away!

I took your advice and quickly found this!: http://wwwm.biz.tc/wwwm19pa.html
THE WHITE MAN'S SHAKINESS ABOUT HIMSELF, AND ITS CAUSES

"The other thing that keeps him from acting upon his disgust, his indignation and anger when they seize upon him, is the fact that he does not know where or how to lay his hand, with any certainty, on those who are of his own kind, his own race, who could be counted on to stand with him." HMMMMM....

[Red Arrow]

No. Obviously not. Splain it to me....

Racist.  What's with the "Splain" thing?  Watching too much "I love Lucy"?

[Teatownclown]

Racist.  What's with the "Splain" thing?  Watching too much "I love Lucy"?

Hispanics are an ethnic group....NOT A RACE!

Sheeeesh, I'll teach some of you right from wrong. Sensitivity training is so difficult in Oklahoma...

Here's Richie, the man who brought you all the laughs from Blazzing Saddles.... telling you what it is.

[Teatownclown]

Another goodie:

[Teatownclown]

More Killings Called Self-Defense

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303404704577311873214574462.html
By JOE PALAZZOLO and ROB BARRY

At a time when the overall U.S. homicide rate is declining, more civilians are killing each other and claiming self-defense—a trend that is most pronounced in states with new "stand your ground" laws.

These laws, which grant people more leeway to attack and even kill someone who is threatening them, are attracting close scrutiny following February's controversial killing of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Florida by a neighborhood watchman. Florida has one of the broadest self-defense laws of the 25 states with some version of a "stand your ground" principle.

So-called justifiable homicides nearly doubled from 2000 to 2010, the most recent data available, when 326 were reported, according to a Wall Street Journal analysis of crime statistics from all 50 states. Over that same 11-year period, total killings averaged roughly 16,000 a year, according to the state figures, which the Journal obtained from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and from Florida.

The data on justifiable homicides and their relationship to "stand your ground" laws hasn't been rigorously studied, according to criminal scientists, and it leaves some questions unanswered. For instance, does a rise in justifiable homicides reflect killings that otherwise wouldn't have happened? Or does it reflect the fact that more killings might naturally fall into the "justifiable" category, if a new law broadens that category?

The statistics don't capture why a killer felt threatened, or whether the victim was armed. And by definition, the dead man—and justifiable-homicide victims are almost exclusively male, unlike nonjustifiable homicides—isn't around to testify.

Still, the numbers provide a rich snapshot of justifiable-homicide characteristics over the 11-year period:

• In about 60% of justifiable-homicide cases in which the relationship between victim and killer was known, the pair were strangers. This differs sharply from nonjustifiable cases, where more than three-fourths of victims knew their killers.

• Firearms were used in more than 80% of justifiable cases. (In seven cases, the victims were asphyxiated or strangled.) In nonjustifiable cases, guns were used about 65% of the time.

• The average age of victims in justifiable cases was 30; in nonjustifiable cases, the average was 32. By either yardstick, the February killing of 17-year-old Mr. Martin was an outlier.

The death of Mr. Martin, a black teen, is driving a widespread debate about the role of race. The nationwide data show that in three-quarters or more of all killings, "justifiable" or otherwise, the killer and victim were of the same race. Proportionally, blacks are more often the victims of homicide.

A split appeared in the data when the race of killer and victim differed. Among all homicides, when races differed, the victim was more often white. By contrast, in justifiable-homicide cases, when the races differed, the opposite was true: The victim was more often black.

James Alan Fox, a professor of criminology at Northeastern University, said that difference "is certainly, on the face of it, something that needs to be explored." He noted it is difficult to draw conclusions without deeper study. "Could it be an element of racism? You can't necessarily assume that," he said.

Critics of the stand-your-ground laws say they breed a shoot-first mentality that not only can lead to more killings, but can make it tough to investigate killings that might otherwise be worth a closer look.

"I choose to believe prosecution for murder has a deterrent effect. It should be a huge deal to take a life," said David LaBahn of the Association of Prosecuting Attorneys. He said laws such as Florida's give civilians stronger protections than police officers who kill in the line of duty.

Supporters of stand-your-ground laws say they empower people to confront criminals in life-threatening situations, rather than flee. "I don't want to find out whether I can outrun a bullet," said James Corley, a Columbia, S.C., lawyer who shot and killed an armed intruder a few years ago.

In that 2009 incident, an intruder had broken into a club for recovering alcoholics and demanded everyone's wallets at gunpoint. Mr. Corley shot him with a concealed weapon. The local prosecutor didn't pursue charges, concluding that Mr. Corley acted in self-defense.

For decades, many states embraced the "Castle Doctrine," the principle that a person's home is their castle and they are generally within their rights to defend themselves, even with deadly force, against intruders.

Outside the home, however, most states required people to try to retreat, rather than take on an aggressor.

A wave of "stand your ground" laws, including Florida's in 2005, expanded the doctrine to include places outside the home.

The National Rifle Association is a prominent backer of the new laws. An NRA official didn't respond to requests for comment.

Oklahoma State Senator Harry Coates, one of the sponsors for the law that passed in his state in 2006, said: "At the time, we were dealing with a tremendous number of carjackings."

Under the Castle Doctrine, he said, "It was a little unclear whether you could protect yourself. So we put it in the statutes that yes, you can shoot to kill if your life is in peril, period." Sen. Coates added, "It's not to allow you to blow people away unless your life is being threatened."

The Journal obtained most of the state-by-state data from the FBI, which collects it from the states, and also obtained Florida data from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. Florida doesn't use the FBI's guidelines when reporting additional information about homicides.

The FBI data don't capture all homicides. The states' reporting is voluntary, and the country's thousands of police agencies aren't consistent in how they report. Some states, including New York, reported no justifiable homicides at all for some years.

In absolute terms, the number of homicides of all kinds reported in the data increased slightly between 2000 and 2010. But when adjusted for population growth, the overall homicide rate declined slightly in that data.

By contrast, over that period, the number of killings categorized as justifiable rose by 85% to 326 cases in 2010 from 176 in 2000, the figures show.

Five of the states that enacted "stand your ground" laws during the past decade—Kansas, Alabama, Mississippi, Montana and West Virginia—reported no significant change in justifiable homicides. In Michigan, which passed its law in 2006, they fell.

Overall, the figures show the sharpest increase in justifiable homicides occurred after 2005, when Florida and 16 other states passed the laws.

While the overall homicide rates in those states stayed relatively flat, the average number of justifiable cases per year increased by more than 50% in the decade's latter half, the data show.

In Texas and Georgia, such cases nearly doubled and in Florida, they nearly tripled. Meanwhile, in states that saw no change in their self-defense laws, justifiable homicides reported to the FBI stayed nearly flat after a slight uptick in the middle decade.

Florida's particularly strong law not only eliminates the duty to retreat, but also presumes that a person who used deadly force in his home or vehicle had a reasonable fear of harm, and it immunizes the killer from civil lawsuits. At least six other states have laws mirroring Florida's.

Justifiable homicides in Florida rose from an average of 12 a year before the law was passed in 2005 to an average 33 a year afterward, according to statistics from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

There are a number of ways a homicide can be deemed justifiable. Prosecutors can decide not to bring charges, or a person can be cleared of wrongdoing by a jury. A judge can also find that someone acted in self-defense.

That's what happened in an unusual case in Miami this past week. Citing the Florida law, a judge dismissed a murder charge against Greyston Garcia, who had chased and stabbed to death a suspected burglar who had stolen his car radio. The judge ruled that a bag of radios swung by the suspect, Pedro Roteta, at Mr. Garcia amounted to a lethal threat.

Mr. Garcia "was well within his rights to pursue the victim and demand the return of his property," the judge said.

Prosecutors plan to appeal, according to a spokesman for Miami-Dade State Attorney Katherine Fernandez Rundle. Mr. Garcia's lawyer, Eduardo Pereira, said: "Mr. Garcia defended himself when attacked by an armed burglar."

In the February killing of Mr. Martin in the Orlando suburb of Sanford, a neighborhood-watch volunteer, George Zimmerman, said he acted in self-defense in shooting the teenager. Mr. Zimmerman hasn't been arrested or charged. His lawyer didn't respond to requests for comment.

The scope of "stand your ground" laws is being tested in several court cases across the country, including in Texas, where self-defense killings increased from an annual average of 26 before the law went into effect in 2007 to 46 after, according to the data.

Jose Manuel Morales was convicted of murder for shooting and killing Enil Lopez in a December 2007 gang fight in Dallas. According to Mr. Morales's lawyer, he was acting in defense of his brother, Juan Morales.

Mr. Morales's murder conviction, for which he was sentenced to 25 years in prison, is now in question because the trial judge incorrectly told the jury the brothers had a duty to retreat. A Texas appeals court is considering whether the error was severe enough to warrant a new trial.

Mr. Morales's lawyer, John Hagler, declined to comment specifically on the case. He did say the new law has given criminal-defense attorneys such as himself a new tool where few existed before. "If you've got two guys shooting it out, how many defenses are there?" he said. "I've had cases where my guy shot a guy in the back with an automatic rifle 11 times and claimed self-defense," Mr. Hagler said, noting that as the lawyer representing the accused, "you've got to do something."

Dallas County District Attorney Craig Watkins, whose office is prosecuting Mr. Morales, said the Texas law was too susceptible to abuse. "If someone is trying to kick in your door, I don't think you should have a duty to retreat," said Mr. Watkins, who declined to comment on the Morales case. "But you can't pursue an individual and then claim self-defense."

Write to Joe Palazzolo at joe.palazzolo@wsj.com and Rob Barry at rob.barry@wsj.com

[nathanm]

Outside the home, however, most states required people to try to retreat, rather than take on an aggressor.

Minor quibble: This is slightly unclear, in that it doesn't explicitly state that a self defense defense has always been available to a person who can't retreat and is facing the use of or threat of deadly force. What had actually been unclear was whether a person could use deadly force in defense of others.

[custosnox]

Wasn't there a poster on this forum who had to do exactly that (shoot someone breaking into his home) here within the last two years or so?

That was me a couple of years ago.  I didn't actually shoot him (I hesitated, which meant he had time to move), but shot at him.

[patric]

Last year's shooting of an unarmed man who accidentally went to the wrong door in an apartment complex seems to just have been swept under the rug.

The only other account I could find was from the TW comments, but the actual outcome would likely have been very relevant here:

Just a young white college graduate who comes from a good loving family who was out with his friends on Friday night and had been at one of their apartments two doors down then left and came right back from his car to get his wallet that he realized he had left in the apartment.  On his way back, he accidentally went to the wrong door. Of course, being a weekend and late at night, one apartment can easily be mistaken for the next.  He went to the door and jiggled it saying, "hey guys, let me in" and the cop opened up the door immediately firing off 3 shots without him even entering the apartment or having a chance to even realize it was the wrong door!
As the police and paramedics arrived he was laying outside of the apartment and mumbled to the officers, "sorry it was an accident" As the off-duty officer/shooter stood above him exclaiming "that is what he gets for trying to come in".  It is also speculated that he waited 5-10 minutes to call in the incident, letting the victim lay there helpless and bleeding out as he stood there watching.  There are several people that will be character witnesses for this gentleman that everyone is so quick to call a criminal, he is one of the most fun-loving, warm-hearted, and goofy individuals you will ever meet, he has never even been in a fight before, so when people that know him hear that the deputy claimed he was being aggressive, everyone almost laughs and immediately knows that is a false statement because the kid doesn't have a mean bone in his body.  Not to mention if given even 5 seconds before being shot, he would have probably said "hey, sorry wrong door" 
It is truly sad that some hondo cop who is trained for many other alternatives concerning conflict resolution besides firing your gun immediately turned to just that!  Why not wrestle him to the ground? Although that wasn't even necessary because he did not even enter the apartment and I swear to God, the last thing this kid was being was aggressive, he would rather sit back and socialize even with this stranger and again, if he were given just a few seconds probably could have made a new friend... That is the type of guy at hand here!  An innocent 27 year old that accidentally went to the wrong door!!!  So the only criminal in this situation is the so-called officer that OPENED HIS OWN DOOR and IMMEDIATELY fired THREE shots at someone OUTSIDE of his apartment. This gentleman should be put away for a long time, let alone someone that we want carrying a gun around everyday as a part of their job!??   
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20110522_11_A5_Anoffd822662

[heironymouspasparagus]

That somebody can claim self defense out of a "belief" that they're in danger ...

Go figure.

What's your criteria for trying to defend yourself? 

Or you just gonna sit and wait for the cops to come and "save you"?

[heironymouspasparagus]

And what they boil down to is the fact that there are now that may people who have defended themselves against serious injury or death.   These are incidents where either the person attempting to injure/kill someone was actually thwarted and died for that effort.  

What you "quote" is classic dissemination, misdirection, selective reporting out of context, and general all around Republicontin style misrepresentation of the issue.  Here is some reality - as reported around the country of real people using their inalienable, God-given right to defend themselves - with references should you be interested in actual facts rather than blathering.  As done 2 million times per year in this country.  (Unless you don't believe newspaper reports and FBI crime statistic reports).  If that's how it is, then there's nothing more can be done to help you...

http://www.americanrifleman.org/BlogList.aspx?id=21