kendall whittier/lweis/6th/demolition

[Red Arrow]

They're awaiting that downtown walkability study, you know.  Absolutely nothing can happen until the final downtown walkability report is completed and rejected.

You forgot the rejected part.   

[SXSW]

TU really needs a campus corner on 11th street.  If there was a way to calm traffic on 11th and put some student oriented shops/bars/restaurants in you could have a fun little strip. 

I would love to see TU undertake this project in conjunction with a city-funded streetscape improvement/traffic calming on 11th between Delaware and Harvard.  Similar to this project at TCU where they have built a campus corner-like area from scratch: http://fortworthtexas.gov/university-berry-urban-village/

[Bamboo World]

I would love to see TU undertake this project in conjunction with a city-funded streetscape improvement/traffic calming on 11th between Delaware and Harvard.  Similar to this project at TCU where they have built a campus corner-like area from scratch: http://fortworthtexas.gov/university-berry-urban-village/

A "streetscaping" project on Tulsa's 11th St, similar to Fort Worth's Berry St, would be a mistake and a waste of money.

Negatives of the Berry streetscaping:

1. Textured sidewalks and crosswalks -- these have been installed in many places in Tulsa, and the pavements don't hold up in Tulsa's climate.  They make walking conditions worse, not better.

2. Lack of shade trees.

3. Traffic lanes -- too wide and too many.


Positives of the Berry streetscaping:

1. Parking allowed along the curbs, with individual parking meters where the parking is metered.  Tulsa's multi-space meters are inferior to the single-space meters.

2. Street lights directed mostly downward instead of upward toward the sky.

3. Lack of overhead utility lines.

Tulsa's 11th Street between Delaware and Harvard is mostly about 44 feet from curb to curb, in a 60-foot right of way.  Why not try re-painting the lanes instead of moving curbs and spending big bucks on textured pavement?

Idea:  A ten foot wide center turn lane, a ten foot wide east-bound lane, and a ten-foot wide west-bound lane.  That would leave about fourteen feet of roadway for curbside parking and/or a designated bike lane, without the expense of moving curbs.  Lower the posted speed limit from 35 mph to 25 or 20 mph.   Those changes wouldn't cost much.  A bigger expense would be to plant shade trees along the curbs.  An even bigger expense would be to bury the existing overhead utilities, but I think that would be more cost effective than to move curbs or to install textured pavement patterns.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

A "streetscaping" project on Tulsa's 11th St, similar to Fort Worth's Berry St, would be a mistake and a waste of money.

Negatives of the Berry streetscaping:

1. Textured sidewalks and crosswalks -- these have been installed in many places in Tulsa, and the pavements don't hold up in Tulsa's climate.  They make walking conditions worse, not better.

2. Lack of shade trees.

3. Traffic lanes -- too wide and too many.


Positives of the Berry streetscaping:

1. Parking allowed along the curbs, with individual parking meters where the parking is metered.  Tulsa's multi-space meters are inferior to the single-space meters.

2. Street lights directed mostly downward instead of upward toward the sky.

3. Lack of overhead utility lines.

Tulsa's 11th Street between Delaware and Harvard is mostly about 44 feet from curb to curb, in a 60-foot right of way.  Why not try re-painting the lanes instead of moving curbs and spending big bucks on textured pavement?

Idea:  A ten foot wide center turn lane, a ten foot wide east-bound lane, and a ten-foot wide west-bound lane.  That would leave about fourteen feet of roadway for curbside parking and/or a designated bike lane, without the expense of moving curbs.  Lower the posted speed limit from 35 mph to 25 or 20 mph.   Those changes wouldn't cost much.  A bigger expense would be to plant shade trees along the curbs.  An even bigger expense would be to bury the existing overhead utilities, but I think that would be more cost effective than to move curbs or to install textured pavement patterns.

Those sound like great ideas! If CoT and TU worked together to redo 11th st like they did Delaware Ave from 11th to 3rd, that would be great for turning the area into a more cohesive walkable area. Maybe TU wants to do this but the city won't let them. It would make a lot of sense for TU but the city is typically reluctant to allow changes that reduces the flow of traffic. Even just changing it to 2 lanes with a 25mph speed limit without the streetscaping would be a big upgrade. Street parking would be great for TU football games although most of the businesses around there don't need anymore parking besides Lone Wolf (and maybe next to Jimmy Johns if anything ever goes in as their lot is small).

TU has awareness of what other universities have done to make them more walkable and livable and have emulated that in many ways, adding amenities so students don't have to leave as much and can get by without a car. For a tiny university, they have done very well and the campus is much more walkable and less auto-centric than it was 10 years ago (they removed streets and created sort of a town-hall by ACAC. I am guessing TU has discussed bottle-necking 11th street (and maybe even Harvard) with the city and they were likely told no. Turning all of those into 2-lane roads would drastically reduce unnecessary traffic around there and would probably help lower crime and create more of a interwoven community feel (similar to how SMU campus blends into the housing areas around it in certain parts). However, those auto-centric businesses might look a bit awkward with angled street parking in front that is rarely used.

At students have the pedestrian crosswalk stoplight for now. It looks like the majority of students still use cars to go to QT although I see some walk and bicycle there too.

[SXSW]

It would have to be a partnership between TU and the city for the best results.  I have no idea if there has been any dialogue on this between the two but obviously they've worked together before on Delaware. 

One of the biggest issues that you mentioned is the fact that most of the businesses along 11th by TU are auto-oriented.  Taco Bueno, Taco Bell, Coney Islander, QT, Burger King, etc all have parking lots and curb cuts.  It's actually one of the worst stretches to walk along in midtown, which is pathetic being right next to a university.  It would take a more concerted effort by TU to buy out these properties and rebuild them for there to be any real change in walkability, even with a nice new streetscape.  That is what it appears TCU is doing with the Berry redevelopment.  Anc would be similar to what TU has already done when they built the oval and housing just north of 11th.  Maybe start in that same area from Delaware to Florence.

I know the OU-Tulsa urban design studio has worked on some design ideas for Route 66 I would be interested to know if they have targeted this area as part of that study.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

It would have to be a partnership between TU and the city for the best results.  I have no idea if there has been any dialogue on this between the two but obviously they've worked together before on Delaware. 

One of the biggest issues that you mentioned is the fact that most of the businesses along 11th by TU are auto-oriented.  Taco Bueno, Taco Bell, Coney Islander, QT, Burger King, etc all have parking lots and curb cuts.  It's actually one of the worst stretches to walk along in midtown, which is pathetic being right next to a university.  It would take a more concerted effort by TU to buy out these properties and rebuild them for there to be any real change in walkability, even with a nice new streetscape.  That is what it appears TCU is doing with the Berry redevelopment.  Anc would be similar to what TU has already done when they built the oval and housing just north of 11th.  Maybe start in that same area from Delaware to Florence.

I know the OU-Tulsa urban design studio has worked on some design ideas for Route 66 I would be interested to know if they have targeted this area as part of that study.

TU buying up those businesses is probably a pipe dream, but that would be neat if they did and brought them up to TU standards. They have focused on building the food offerings in the interior part of campus and I don't think they would be able to take on risk to buy and rebuild that stretch to improve walkability, especially for such a small university. And I bet most all of those businesses would be against reducing 11th to 2 lanes, reducing traffic. As it stands, the strip of mostly chain restaurants isn't interesting looking enough to become any sort of district that would draw in people for the character like Cherry St.

I hope that small businesses and retail owners of places on 11th between Harvard and Lewis will come together on a bigger scale to try to create sort of a district with some kind of a vision for the are. The north side of 11th is part of Kendall-Whittier district while the south is Renaissance. I have more hope in 11th between Lewis and Delaware, thanks to the local businesses in that stretch: Campbell hotel/Maxxwells/bar, 918 coffee, Capp's, Denas, Hookah lounge, La Flama, corner store, bakery, Chinese place, burger/Turkish place, Midtown Market and soon Fuel 66 food truck park. They already have had Kendall-Whittier promotions at many of those shops.

Compare that to between Delaware and Harvard: a dozen chain restaurants and the single Lone Wolf (pun intended! ) of local places. I know Jimmy John's is owned by a TU alumnus who has posted on this  board. Outside of that, it is hard to believe any other place on that strip would have any interest in a collaborative effort to make the area more of a "district".

I think some moniker like "University Avenue" or "The Strip on Route-66" with signs over the street to show where it begins and ends would be neat, maybe starting at Lewis, going to Harvard. The Lobeck Taylor foundation had a presentation with some signs on Route 66 to be installed around Tulsa and they're planning quite a big development by 11th on Lewis next to the Renaissance Brewery which is being built. Maybe the Renaissance Neighborhood would be a good group to work with to come up with a cohesive retail/food/entertainment district for that area.

[swake]

TU buying up those businesses is probably a pipe dream, but that would be neat if they did and brought them up to TU standards. They have focused on building the food offerings in the interior part of campus and I don't think they would be able to take on risk to buy and rebuild that stretch to improve walkability, especially for such a small university. And I bet most all of those businesses would be against reducing 11th to 2 lanes, reducing traffic. As it stands, the strip of mostly chain restaurants isn't interesting looking enough to become any sort of district that would draw in people for the character like Cherry St.

I hope that small businesses and retail owners of places on 11th between Harvard and Lewis will come together on a bigger scale to try to create sort of a district with some kind of a vision for the are. The north side of 11th is part of Kendall-Whittier district while the south is Renaissance. I have more hope in 11th between Lewis and Delaware, thanks to the local businesses in that stretch: Campbell hotel/Maxxwells/bar, 918 coffee, Capp's, Denas, Hookah lounge, La Flama, corner store, bakery, Chinese place, burger/Turkish place, Midtown Market and soon Fuel 66 food truck park. They already have had Kendall-Whittier promotions at many of those shops.

Compare that to between Delaware and Harvard: a dozen chain restaurants and the single Lone Wolf (pun intended! ) of local places. I know Jimmy John's is owned by a TU alumnus who has posted on this  board. Outside of that, it is hard to believe any other place on that strip would have any interest in a collaborative effort to make the area more of a "district".

I think some moniker like "University Avenue" or "The Strip on Route-66" with signs over the street to show where it begins and ends would be neat, maybe starting at Lewis, going to Harvard. The Lobeck Taylor foundation had a presentation with some signs on Route 66 to be installed around Tulsa and they're planning quite a big development by 11th on Lewis next to the Renaissance Brewery which is being built. Maybe the Renaissance Neighborhood would be a good group to work with to come up with a cohesive retail/food/entertainment district for that area.

The bought up everything on the north side of 11th, no reason they can't do the south side as well.

[Bamboo World]

If CoT and TU worked together to redo 11th st like they did Delaware Ave from 11th to 3rd, that would be great for turning the area into a more cohesive walkable area.

That depends...

In my opinion, any major re-working of the curbs along 11th wouldn't be worth the cost.  Re-painting lanes would be effective, and much less expensive.  Changing speed limit signs wouldn't cost much, either.

Installing acorns lights along the south side of 11th similar to those on the north side of the street would be a waste of money.  Acorn lights pointing up to the sky shouldn't be installed along any public streets, anywhere in Tulsa.  The light should be directed downward, at a minimum.  I'll let patric comment on the photometrics and lamping if he wishes, but at least the fixtures on the south side of 11th point down toward the sidewalk.

Walking on the north side of 11th between Delaware and Harvard is more pleasant than walking on the south side of the street.  I think curbside parking would help protect the sidewalks from the moving traffic lanes.  In general, the curb cuts on the south side of 11th are too wide to make walking comfortable.  The parking areas are too large.  Some are ridiculously large, such as the Arby's overflow parking at 11th & Evanston.  I wish Google Maps had time stamps on their Street Views.  The photos are taken during the daytime, obviously.  I've seen the Google cars go by on weekdays, when traffic is lighter.

But using the Arby's parking lot as an example, there are ten different versions of Google Maps Street Views, with photos taken between November 2007 and June 2016.  By my count, the lot to the west of the building has 47 parking spaces.  In a Google Earth aerial view, I found an image with 37 of the 47 spaces occupied, but in the street views, there are hardly any cars parked on that particular lot.

November 2007 (afternoon): about 9 of 47 spaces occupied

July 2011 (morning): 2 of 47 spaces occupied

March 2012 (morning): 2 of 47 spaces occupied

The lot was completely empty on an afternoon in June 2012.

January 2014 (morning): 2 of 47 spaces occupied

June 2014 (morning):  Only one space is occupied, by a US Postal Service vehicle.

July 2015 (afternoon): 8 of 47 spaces occupied

November 2015 (afternoon): 15 of 47 spaces occupied

January 2016 (morning): 16 of 47 spaces occupied

June 2016 (afternoon):  2 of 47 spaces occupied

It could be a matter of when the Google cars went by, but is the Arby's parking lot ever full?  Even in the photos with cars, they probably aren't Arby's customers, because the vehicles are not parked near the building.

Even with the curb cut and a crosswalk, I estimate enough curb length on 11th for four parallel parking spaces, adjacent to the Arby's west parking lot.  Without the curb cut, there could be seven on-street parallel parking spaces.

As the existing buildings on the south side of 11th wear out, they could be replaced with more pedestrian-friendly buildings, placed close to the public sidewalks.  Corner sites such as Arby's west parking area would be good places to start increasing walkability.  With shared parking behind buildings on smaller lots and with on-street parking, a mixture of commercial uses could be supported.

The textured pavement used on crosswalks across Delaware is not a good idea.  It's better to have the crosswalks marked and signed, as they are on 11th.  Changing them to rough texture pavement would be another waste of money.

[davideinstein]

Arby's lot is about half full at peak lunch.

[SXSW]

The bought up everything on the north side of 11th, no reason they can't do the south side as well.

Exactly, if there's a will there's a way.  On a smaller scale but Brookside has been nearly completely rebuilt into a walkable area south of the existing "core" at 33rd down to 35th.  If you have a single master developer (TU) working with other developers you can do it an even larger scale, just like TU did with their Front Door project a decade ago which had a much larger scope.  It involved demolishing multiple apartments and buildings, including retail businesses along 11th between Delaware and Evanston, closing down streets, rebuilding new streets and building new apartments, green space and university buildings.  Redeveloping the fast food joints along 11th would be relatively simple in comparison.

[davideinstein]

Highly doubt a few businesses on the south side would sell. The problem on the south side is the sidewalk is right on the curb. That's the city of Tulsa for you though.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Highly doubt a few businesses on the south side would sell. The problem on the south side is the sidewalk is right on the curb. That's the city of Tulsa for you though.

I doubt it too. I also doubt that TU could take that task on any time soon. I wouldn't be surprised if the have a long term plan to buy up some more properties there and perhaps redo 11th, but probably a long-term goal. They have a lot going on (Redoing the old Blue Cross building downtown into medical/law center, building new athletic complex, building big residential village west of campus along with plans east of campus, $50+ million pledged for Gilcrease expansion).

When you have such a tiny university in a small state, there is only so much you can do. The current center of the campus is as walkable and bustling as it can get with plenty of food options and other amenities for this size of university. TU focused on that and drastically improved it compared to 20 or even 10 years ago. TU is a great example of transformation and they are spreading that west and to downtown.

This post was about how much TU is doing west of the university to redo that entire neighborhood and help provide affordable housing for so many but that apparently isn't enough. Apparently they need to will all of the 11th street businesses into selling so they can demolish and rebuild a walkable area or else they are just closing themselves off doing little for the community. Maybe because of what they demolished... Besides Metro Diner and maybe Starship records, the rest of that area was unsightly and mostly dilapidated by the time TU razed it.

[swake]

If I am remembering correctly, TU in cooperation with the city has used eminent domain before to acquire property. With TU's billion dollar endowment money certainly isn't an issue either.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

If I am remembering correctly, TU in cooperation with the city has used eminent domain before to acquire property. With TU's billion dollar endowment money certainly isn't an issue either.

Most all of the endowment is earmarked for specific things. Eminent domain made more sense when they were expanding into the area the city master plan had set as TU expansion area and it gave the campus an entrance and much needed apartments. I don't think anywhere south of 11th is part of that.

Would be neat to see some upgrades on that strip though! So many ugly parking lots and outdated/ugly buildings. The strip has been unsightly for a while. Lone Wolf, Jimmy Johns and Coney Islander have done their part. The 2 mini-strip malls are eyesores.

[Tulsasaurus Rex]

If I am remembering correctly, TU in cooperation with the city has used eminent domain before to acquire property. With TU's billion dollar endowment money certainly isn't an issue either.

At the risk of thread drift: But as we've discussed on this board before, that's not really an option anymore in Oklahoma. The state supreme court has said our state constitution forbids takings for private entities (as TU is) of that kind. And good riddance. What's more, such a move would probably provoke considerable more public opposition now than it did before New London, CT's Kelo case and the nationwide wave of backlash it sparked.