3 dead, 2 injured in series of shootings

[azbadpuppy]

The research on Tate Brady has only recently (as in the last year or so) come to the public's attention.  It seems to me that this professor has an ax to grind against Tulsa, and trying to say that we are indifferent about racism because recent research has shown that the person that the Brady district is named after was a clansman, contrary to popular belief, is really just nick picking.  Not to mention that not everyone accepts this research as positive proof of such a stance (though it is primarily the great granddaughter that is fighting it).

Actually, if you do a bit of searching you can see where Brady's past in various factions of the KKK is well documented, and appears to have been known for quite some time. Again, just not talked about.

It didn't sound like this historian had an axe to grind: he was simply stating that it seems like many Tulsans are still indifferent about race relations, and are reluctant to talk about them. I don't really have an opinion since I haven't been a resident for quite some time, but growing up there, I can say with certaintly there was more than a little covert racism experienced. I was really curious though as to what people on here thought about all of this.

I do think its very strange, and concerning however, that the race riots were not taught in the school systems anywhere in Oklahoma, as far as I can gather, from asking all of my relatives and friends who went to schools throughout Oklahoma- not just Tulsa. It was, and still is to this day, the single deadliest racial clash in American history.

[patric]

Why would Tulsa, with it's less than stellar history of race relations, name a well known district after a confirmed racist? Why not rename it to something less offensive? It seems very insensitive. I never knew that about Tate Brady. I guess it's not surprising, given that I never leared about the race riots until I was in my 20's and living in another state. Is it still not taught in the schools in Tulsa? 

Now I have to wonder if the people who want to banish the names of controversial city forefathers are the same ones who want to mandate riot history courses?

I agree we should know our history, barnacles and all, but we should approach it as history and not as politics.

[Conan71]

You and Cust are working hard to race bait me today, but I won't get too entangled. Non violent confrontation to move against an injustice makes sense to keep rioting from a method and these leaders provide an ability to communicate civility with the masses of frustrated people. You really think they created the controversy in Florida? BTW RM, it's always a necessary evil to be a speaker for a country's conscience.

You're an engineer Conan? Some sensitivity towards the issue rather than dismissing it as "creating controversy." Is "creating controversy" the same  as pointing out injustices, prejudices, and discriminatory practices against gender, race, or ethnic background? These gentlemen believe strongly in peace and in civil disobedience. For you noticing they aren't coming here while still spatting a disconnect and incoherence against these minority group leaders again exposes you because I know you enjoy a good debate. In the Zimmerman situation, these men did not create a controversy but instead exposed a potential mishandling of justice to the masses. If you have a problem with that, then quit reading newspapers, the internet, and watching Fox.

I stand by my earlier comments:

  I didn't start this fire. Why's it still simmering? Think it's going to get better on it's own?

"They never know what's going on in the Negro Community" Malcom X (watch and don't run from it)...still applies today.

I'm not trying to crank your starter at all, TTC.  I'll reserve further comment on Rev. Al'$ vi$it until after it's in print.

As far as peaceful? Google Sharpton and the Crown Heights Riot or the Freddie's Fashion Mart protest and tell me you still think $harpton is completely blameless in the violence which erupted.  I also have a hard time with a tax scofflaw who owes north of $500k blaming enforcement efforts by the IRS as "politically motivated".  He brings in millions, yet creates a web of "non-profits" to cheat the IRS.  He's no better than the corporatists you rail against.

Jackson? Well-documented Anti-Semite. Hymietown?  Diamond merchants?

Obviously, what happened this last weekend in Tulsa is a horrific tragedy in any community.  I'm simply hoping that the context remains what it is: two very sick people decided to go on a shooting rampage.  This is not the product of some community which condones such behavior, nor where there is an overt sense of racial injustice or hate crimes.

I'm incredibly impressed not only with swift police work, but mostly the sense of dignity with which all of Tulsa has dealt with this crime spree.  That's why I'm really miffed at $harpton's visit and what his message will be.  I'm curious if he will be able to recognize the dignity with which this has been handled rather than trying to foment some sort of outrage.

[TheArtist]

Didn't sound like this historian had an axe to grind: he was simply stating that it seems like many Tulsans are still indifferent about race relations, and are reluctant to talk about them.  

 I find this and other similar statements disconcerting.  First off I personally am not reluctant to talk about race relations, I just have not had the topic come up in any way or situation in which talking about it would make any difference.  Perhaps its because most people I hang around apparently have similar thoughts or opinions or don't say otherwise.  But what of this "indifference"?  What does that mean exactly and whats a person supposed to do such that they will not be "indifferent" to our cities race relations?  

 

[Weatherdemon]

While there are certainly racial tension in Tulsa, I don't believe they are at the levels that the national press is insinuating.

During the late 80's and early 90's there was a pretty decent skinhead movement in town but their acts were more along the lines petty thiefs than racist jackasses since most of the people in the scene they hung out in were totally against racism.

The city council promoted racism for a while by calling out the mayors for doing or not doing certain things in north Tulsa. Typically, the race card was played to get the press involved as the racist sentiments often quieted once the councilor got what they wanted.

I don't see racism as a problem in Tulsa right now and find it ironic that a guy who appears to be mexican or indian had racist facebook posts against blacks that is being used to make it look like all white people in Tulsa hate black people.

[custosnox]

You sound like Charlie Manson....

Care to elaborate on this comparison, or is this just a simple ad hominem?

[cynical]

The denial that racism is a problem in Tulsa is part of the problem with race in Tulsa if you don't mind a bit of recursion. We almost never get to the bottom of the issue because it is more convenient to simply deny that it exists. This case is a wonderful example. A couple of white guys, one of whom might be part native American, post inflammatory rhetoric on Facebook site and tells a friend that it's time to go kill some f***ing n*****s, get in their truck and drive around North Tulsa shooting people about whom the only thing they know is they're black. The first comments to the article in the Tulsa World are that it must be some sort of drug deal gone bad. The next is what are those people doing out of doors after dark in North Tulsa. Then when it emerges that the shooters are a couple of white guys in a pickup truck, they equate the case to the recent murder case in which the two elderly people were beaten and robbed in their home, one of whom later died. It's as if some white folks believe it is justifiable to say "meh" to racially motivated serial killing because the black community failed to condemn a single black-on-white crime to their satisfaction. And meanwhile everyone, white and black, seems to have accepted a gang war that results in Tulsa having one of the highest per-capita homicide rates in the country as just one of those things. For a pro-life community, life seems to be pretty cheap, especially African-American life.  

Meanwhile, the mayor is quoted as telling CNN, "No, there's no racial tension in the town at all now. We've gone beyond that years and years ago. Decades, really." Give me a break.

No slam against Weatherdemon here. He is echoing a common theme, probably more out of hope that it might be true than anything else, and unlike our idiot mayor, at least recognizes that tensions exist, leaving us to debate their effect. I remember the skinheads and the Irish Mob during the '80s and am glad to see it drift back into obscurity. But there's much more to the problem of race in Tulsa than that.

The Tate Brady issue is a whole other story that reaches many of the oldest and most respected families in Tulsa. That might explain our collective disinclination to poke too hard at it. I don't think we are well served by simply pretending that long-held societal beliefs have somehow just gone away because of the goodness of the people. Let those with ears to hear, etc.

While there are certainly racial tension in Tulsa, I don't believe they are at the levels that the national press is insinuating.

During the late 80's and early 90's there was a pretty decent skinhead movement in town but their acts were more along the lines petty thiefs than racist jackasses since most of the people in the scene they hung out in were totally against racism.

The city council promoted racism for a while by calling out the mayors for doing or not doing certain things in north Tulsa. Typically, the race card was played to get the press involved as the racist sentiments often quieted once the councilor got what they wanted.

I don't see racism as a problem in Tulsa right now and find it ironic that a guy who appears to be mexican or indian had racist facebook posts against blacks that is being used to make it look like all white people in Tulsa hate black people.

[custosnox]

Actually, if you do a bit of searching you can see where Brady's past in various factions of the KKK is well documented, and appears to have been known for quite some time. Again, just not talked about.

It didn't sound like this historian had an axe to grind: he was simply stating that it seems like many Tulsans are still indifferent about race relations, and are reluctant to talk about them. I don't really have an opinion since I haven't been a resident for quite some time, but growing up there, I can say with certaintly there was more than a little covert racism experienced. I was really curious though as to what people on here thought about all of this.

I do think its very strange, and concerning however, that the race riots were not taught in the school systems anywhere in Oklahoma, as far as I can gather, from asking all of my relatives and friends who went to schools throughout Oklahoma- not just Tulsa. It was, and still is to this day, the single deadliest racial clash in American history.

I'm trying to get ready for a trip, so I wasn't able to really dig into the claim on Brady, but everything that came up in a quick search went back to one book written by a guy who had done the research and was getting a lot of media attention last year.  I've done some research on my own of the history of Tulsa and don't recall coming across it before.  This is essentially what I'm going on about the claim of it being a non-issue of the district being named after him.  Doesn't mean I'm correct, just what information I have at hand.  

To me it seems the historian has a bias against Tulsa and is intent on painting the scene in a poor light, just from what you posted about him as it doesn't seem to accurately reflect what I see here.  Why is it so important that everyone be discussing race?  This only fosters the attitude of difference.  Wouldn't an ideal society put as little emphasis on this as possible?  Or should we also have it as a prominent discussion about how some people have blue eyes and others have brown?  It's when we highlight these differences that problems come about.  It makes me think of the whole "why don't you see?  They are black on the left side!"

Just curious, did you learn of the Watts riots in public school?  While I agree that we should learn our history, both good and bad, it seems that some of these things tend to get lost in the vastness of history that we need to learn.  

[azbadpuppy]

While there are certainly racial tension in Tulsa, I don't believe they are at the levels that the national press is insinuating.

I tend to agree with that, especially since I know a lot of people in Tulsa, none of whom I would think of as racist, and I am certain that the vast majority of Tulsans are not racist. However, when you have a history like Tulsa's (like it or not, it happened), it may not be in the best interest of the city's image to name major streets, neighborhoods, and points of interest after a KKK member. It's also propbably not a great idea to try and ignore history by not teaching it in the schools. Don't the schools require all kids to take an Oklahoma history class? I would think that's a pretty important piece of history to learn about, you know, so as not to repeat it. Just saying.

I think these things are where some might see the attitude in Tulsa as "indifferent".

[custosnox]

The denial that racism is a problem in Tulsa is part of the problem with race in Tulsa if you don't mind a bit of recursion. We almost never get to the bottom of the issue because it is more convenient to simply deny that it exists. This case is a wonderful example. A couple of white guys, one of whom might be part native American, post inflammatory rhetoric on Facebook site and tells a friend that it's time to go kill some f***ing n*****s, get in their truck and drive around North Tulsa shooting people about whom the only thing they know is they're black. The first comments to the article in the Tulsa World are that it must be some sort of drug deal gone bad. The next is what are those people doing out of doors after dark in North Tulsa. Then when it emerges that the shooters are a couple of white guys in a pickup truck, they equate the case to the recent murder case in which the two elderly people were beaten and robbed in their home, one of whom later died. It's as if some white folks believe it is justifiable to say "meh" to racially motivated serial killing because the black community failed to condemn a single black-on-white crime to their satisfaction. And meanwhile everyone, white and black, seems to have accepted a gang war that results in Tulsa having one of the highest per-capita homicide rates in the country as just one of those things. For a pro-life community, life seems to be pretty cheap, especially African-American life.  

Meanwhile, the mayor is quoted as telling CNN, "No, there's no racial tension in the town at all now. We've gone beyond that years and years ago. Decades, really." Give me a break.

No slam against Weatherdemon here. He is echoing a common theme, probably more out of hope that it might be true than anything else, and unlike our idiot mayor, at least recognizes that tensions exist, leaving us to debate their effect. I remember the skinheads and the Irish Mob during the '80s and am glad to see it drift back into obscurity. But there's much more to the problem of race in Tulsa than that.

The Tate Brady issue is a whole other story that reaches many of the oldest and most respected families in Tulsa. That might explain our collective disinclination to poke too hard at it. I don't think we are well served by simply pretending that long-held societal beliefs have somehow just gone away because of the goodness of the people. Let those with ears to hear, etc.

There is a lot of racism still in our little city, but it is getting stamped out more and more.  For those ones that made the stupid racist remarks in the comments section, how many came in behind them and called them out on it?  Some people just won't get past their own bigotry.  While Dewey's comments are obviously a result of the pink gasses that shadows always goes on about (seeing things through rose colored glasses), the level of racial tensions here really aren't that bad compared to a lot of other places.  We are on the way out of that era, though we still have a ways to go.  Yes, it does exist, which is a shame, but claiming racism every chance one gets does nothing to help the cause.  Let me ask, if a cop pulls a car over for doing 75 in a 60 and the driver turns out to be black, and his comment is "it's because I'm black," who do you think is the one that is bringing race into the situation?

[azbadpuppy]

 I find this and other similar statements disconcerting.  First off I personally am not reluctant to talk about race relations, I just have not had the topic come up in any way or situation in which talking about it would make any difference.  Perhaps its because most people I hang around apparently have similar thoughts or opinions or don't say otherwise.  But what of this "indifference"?  What does that mean exactly and whats a person supposed to do such that they will not be "indifferent" to our cities race relations?  
 

I think requiring the Tulsa riots be taught in school whould be a good start. By ignoring it, the perception is indeeed that the overall mindset is, at the very best, indifferent. I'm actually pretty shocked that I never learned about such an important piece of Tulsa history, all the while growing up and being educated in Tulsa! That, to me, is very disconcerting.

By simply not talking about it, or pretending it doesn't exist, or viewing it as an unnecessary or uncomfortable subject, is the very definition of "indifference".

[Conan71]

The denial that racism is a problem in Tulsa is part of the problem with race in Tulsa if you don't mind a bit of recursion. We almost never get to the bottom of the issue because it is more convenient to simply deny that it exists. This case is a wonderful example. A couple of white guys, one of whom might be part native American, post inflammatory rhetoric on Facebook site and tells a friend that it's time to go kill some f***ing n*****s, get in their truck and drive around North Tulsa shooting people about whom the only thing they know is they're black. The first comments to the article in the Tulsa World are that it must be some sort of drug deal gone bad. The next is what are those people doing out of doors after dark in North Tulsa. Then when it emerges that the shooters are a couple of white guys in a pickup truck, they equate the case to the recent murder case in which the two elderly people were beaten and robbed in their home, one of whom later died. It's as if some white folks believe it is justifiable to say "meh" to racially motivated serial killing because the black community failed to condemn a single black-on-white crime to their satisfaction. And meanwhile everyone, white and black, seems to have accepted a gang war that results in Tulsa having one of the highest per-capita homicide rates in the country as just one of those things. For a pro-life community, life seems to be pretty cheap, especially African-American life.  

Meanwhile, the mayor is quoted as telling CNN, "No, there's no racial tension in the town at all now. We've gone beyond that years and years ago. Decades, really." Give me a break.

No slam against Weatherdemon here. He is echoing a common theme, probably more out of hope that it might be true than anything else, and unlike our idiot mayor, at least recognizes that tensions exist, leaving us to debate their effect. I remember the skinheads and the Irish Mob during the '80s and am glad to see it drift back into obscurity. But there's much more to the problem of race in Tulsa than that.

The Tate Brady issue is a whole other story that reaches many of the oldest and most respected families in Tulsa. That might explain our collective disinclination to poke too hard at it. I don't think we are well served by simply pretending that long-held societal beliefs have somehow just gone away because of the goodness of the people. Let those with ears to hear, etc.

Random statements in the TW comments section on crime cases doesn't rise to the level of a huge racial divide in Tulsa.  I refuse to believe the comments of a handful of idiotic individuals defines an entire community (I'm certain you must have an IQ under 90 to post in the TW).  Just because we don't talk about the race riots in daily conversation doesn't mean it's swept under the rug or that we are indifferent to it.  Just because there's a historic district, residential area, and street bearing Tate Brady's name doesn't mean Tulsa is glorifying nor celebrating it's racist past.

At some point you have to quit being a slave to history and to the few negative nut bags in a community and focus on and enjoy the positives.

I think requiring the Tulsa riots be taught in school whould be a good start. By ignoring it, the perception is indeeed that the overall mindset is, at the very best, indifferent. I'm actually pretty shocked that I never learned about such an important piece of Tulsa history, all the while growing up and being educated in Tulsa! That, to me, is very disconcerting.

By simply not talking about it, or pretending it doesn't exist, or viewing it as an unnecessary or uncomfortable subject, is the very definition of "indifference".

I wish I could find a copy of the Oklahoma history book we used in 9th grade.  If it was taught, we didn't spend a lot of time on the topic.

[Gaspar]

I think requiring the Tulsa riots be taught in school whould be a good start. By ignoring it, the perception is indeeed that the overall mindset is, at the very best, indifferent. I'm actually pretty shocked that I never learned about such an important piece of Tulsa history, all the while growing up and being educated in Tulsa! That, to me, is very disconcerting.

By simply not talking about it, or pretending it doesn't exist, or viewing it as an unnecessary or uncomfortable subject, is the very definition of "indifference".

I went to Jenks in the 80s and we learned about it.  It was actually a chapter in one of our text books.  I remember being amazed by all of the old pictures of Tulsa, and shocked that something like that could happen in a city where I grew up. 

[azbadpuppy]

I'm trying to get ready for a trip, so I wasn't able to really dig into the claim on Brady, but everything that came up in a quick search went back to one book written by a guy who had done the research and was getting a lot of media attention last year.  I've done some research on my own of the history of Tulsa and don't recall coming across it before.  This is essentially what I'm going on about the claim of it being a non-issue of the district being named after him.  Doesn't mean I'm correct, just what information I have at hand.  

And you could be correct- I just happened to notice a few articles dating back as far as 2009 from a quick search, which led me to believe there was more than just a years history.

Why is it so important that everyone be discussing race?

I think the many riots of the past and more present, as well as actions like the recent shootings, numerous hate crimes, and on a global scale, the actions of Nazi Germany have answered this question.   

Just curious, did you learn of the Wyatt's riots in public school?  While I agree that we should learn our history, both good and bad, it seems that some of these things tend to get lost in the vastness of history that we need to learn.  

Do you mean the Watts riots? I honestly don't remember if I learned about them in high school, or in college, but yes, I learned about them. I also did not go to high school in California, where they occured. I personally think it's extremely important to teach this history to kids, since it greatly impacts the present, and future of our complex relations in this country.

[Teatownclown]

The denial that racism is a problem in Tulsa is part of the problem with race in Tulsa if you don't mind a bit of recursion. We almost never get to the bottom of the issue because it is more convenient to simply deny that it exists. This case is a wonderful example. A couple of white guys, one of whom might be part native American, post inflammatory rhetoric on Facebook site and tells a friend that it's time to go kill some f***ing n*****s, get in their truck and drive around North Tulsa shooting people about whom the only thing they know is they're black. The first comments to the article in the Tulsa World are that it must be some sort of drug deal gone bad. The next is what are those people doing out of doors after dark in North Tulsa. Then when it emerges that the shooters are a couple of white guys in a pickup truck, they equate the case to the recent murder case in which the two elderly people were beaten and robbed in their home, one of whom later died. It's as if some white folks believe it is justifiable to say "meh" to racially motivated serial killing because the black community failed to condemn a single black-on-white crime to their satisfaction. And meanwhile everyone, white and black, seems to have accepted a gang war that results in Tulsa having one of the highest per-capita homicide rates in the country as just one of those things. For a pro-life community, life seems to be pretty cheap, especially African-American life.  

Meanwhile, the mayor is quoted as telling CNN, "No, there's no racial tension in the town at all now. We've gone beyond that years and years ago. Decades, really." Give me a break.

No slam against Weatherdemon here. He is echoing a common theme, probably more out of hope that it might be true than anything else, and unlike our idiot mayor, at least recognizes that tensions exist, leaving us to debate their effect. I remember the skinheads and the Irish Mob during the '80s and am glad to see it drift back into obscurity. But there's much more to the problem of race in Tulsa than that.

The Tate Brady issue is a whole other story that reaches many of the oldest and most respected families in Tulsa. That might explain our collective disinclination to poke too hard at it. I don't think we are well served by simply pretending that long-held societal beliefs have somehow just gone away because of the goodness of the people. Let those with ears to hear, etc.

Insightful post...

Custo, the problem is racism goes unnoticed.

Conan, do you think people change? He's certainly learned about diet.

Tulsa is a better place these days. I'd attribute it to the integration of schools which opened the door to communication and understanding. Our sanctuaries seem more tolerant as well. Unfortunately, the melt down of family and hard economic times sets progress back. The bigger conflict is between the haves and the have nots.