Marine's First Amendment Rights

[guido911]

This is an interesting subject, both as a lawyer and a former soldier. I was (and still am) a "mission first", and those that endanger the success of the mission need to be removed. However, is the mission being endangered by a soldier on his own time rips on the CiC? After all, we hear government officials slap around our troops all the time to gain nothing but political points. Are we concerned if those comments hurt our mission or is free speech more important? Intriguing subject, especially since we are talking about restricting the free speech rights of those who are willing to spill their blood to ensure we keep our free speech.

http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/marine-corps/220423-case-of-obama-bashing-marine-renews-first-amendment-debate

[patric]

This is an interesting subject, both as a lawyer and a former soldier. I was (and still am) a "mission first", and those that endanger the success of the mission need to be removed. However, is the mission being endangered by a soldier on his own time rips on the CiC? After all, we hear government officials slap around our troops all the time to gain nothing but political points. Are we concerned if those comments hurt our mission or is free speech more important? Intriguing subject, especially since we are talking about restricting the free speech rights of those who are willing to spill their blood to ensure we keep our free speech.

http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/marine-corps/220423-case-of-obama-bashing-marine-renews-first-amendment-debate

I would have the same right to say what I want about an employer as they would have the right to decide if I should work for them.

[guido911]

I would have the same right to say what I want about an employer as they would have the right to decide if I should work for them.

I do not find the comparison the same. We are talking about a government employer restricting an employee/soldier right to free speech, not some private actor (unless your employer is the government) restricting your run-of-the-mill worker. The First Amendment (as applied to the states by the 14th) is a restriction of government's abilities.

[Red Arrow]

I seem to remember that in Boot Camp in fall of 1972, that joining the military involved agreeing to be subject to the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) and giving up your Constitutional Rights. It was not something I probably would have done if not for the draft.

[Ed W]

Two quick thoughts, and then I'm off to work.

First, the President is the CIC.  He is the top of the chain of command.  Imagine similar statements directed against a company commander or a top sergeant.  It is disruptive to discipline.

Consider, too, how you'd think about this if it were a common soldier or a member of the Joint Chiefs criticizing President Bush. 

BTW, nice photo, Guido.

Gotta go...

[Conan71]

I never served and do not have a clue what rights a soldier signs away when he or she enlists, so take my opinion for what it's worth:

I would think publicly disparaging your c/o or any higher ranking officer, up to and including the CiC would be absolutely verboten.  Seems like that would fly in the face of expected conduct and discipline.

[RecycleMichael]

The military does seem to do things differently. Complaining about your boss is pretty common, however.

I get angry when I hear about my employees whining about me. If only I could make them march and then transfer them to a far outpost. 

[Conan71]

The military does seem to do things differently. Complaining about your boss is pretty common, however.

I get angry when I hear about my employees whining about me. If only I could make them march and then transfer them to a far outpost. 

"I'm stationing you right in the middle of the Shell Creek Landfill, Private!"

[Gaspar]

This Marine deserves a dishonorable discharge.  As a US soldier, you don't disparage the Commander in Chief, no matter how incompetent he/she is.  

You may choose to disobey orders that you feel are wrong, but you do it with the knowledge that you will likely face court marshal for doing so.  

A soldier is free to speak his mind, but that does not mean that there won't be consequences for doing so!  

If I were to take to Facebook and offer disparaging comments about my boss, though I am exercising my free-speech rights, I am rather positive that my boss would exercise his right to terminate me.

Why is this even a debate?

[guido911]

This Marine deserves a dishonorable discharge.  As a US soldier, you don't disparage the Commander in Chief, no matter how incompetent he/she is.  

You may choose to disobey orders that you feel are wrong, but you do it with the knowledge that you will likely face court marshal for doing so.  

A soldier is free to speak his mind, but that does not mean that there won't be consequences for doing so!  

If I were to take to Facebook and offer disparaging comments about my boss, though I am exercising my free-speech rights, I am rather positive that my boss would exercise his right to terminate me.

Why is this even a debate?

Because we are talking about the first amendment and the rights of AMERICANS--despite their position or role they play. We are also talking about the role of new media and whether the particular soldier intended to smash the CiC in his capacity as a soldier or an every day American. That was a sticking point for me since the folks that I hung around all seemed to live lives as civilians once the uniform came off. And again, the fact that you can get fired in the private sector for bad mouthing your non-government boss is not the same.

RA:  The UCMJ offers an interesting twist to the question. I have provided a link to this instrument for those wanting to read it--Chapter 10 in particular.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htm

Incidentally, IIRC active duty people can still vote in elections, attend off post political rallies, and I even remember people blending peace signs into their face camo. Here's another link that only serves to blur the lines even more...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/27-1/Ch10.htm

[Conan71]

You're right, there is a difference between a civilian bad-mouthing his or her boss in their spare time. 

President Obama may be the biggest jackass who has ever held the office of President in that soldier's mind, probably in many soldier's minds.  However, seems to me that insubordination is insubordination whether you are in uniform or not.

[Red Arrow]

Incidentally, IIRC active duty people can still vote in elections, attend off post political rallies, and I even remember people blending peace signs into their face camo. Here's another link that only serves to blur the lines even more...

I voted by absentee ballot for Prez while on active duty since my home of record was OK and I was stationed in VA.  I didn't vote in local elections since I didn't keep up with anything from Bixby.

[JCnOwasso]

Upon swearing to protect the constitution of the United States of American, you give up your rights as a normal citizen.  You are held to a higher standard as compared to Joe Sixpack.  You want to comment about the President?  Wait until you are separated... unless you are looking for a quick way to get discharged.

As for the political thing... You can vote, attend rallies, etc... but you cannot be in your uniform and you cannot campaign for anyone in a partisan election using your title.