Downtown stadium in the East End....

[TheArtist]

It's not walkable urbanity now, but boy if there is any area that would be great for it to be that way, this would be it.  I would really hope this could be the "urban neighborhood" area for downtown. 

[ZYX]

I see a lot of potential in this area. I think sooner, rather than later, we will see a huge change come to this side of downtown.

[Red Arrow]

I see a lot of potential in this area. I think sooner, rather than later, we will see a huge change come to this side of downtown.

Thank you. I never would have guessed that meaning.  I truly mean no disrespect.  I really had no idea what you were saying.  Probably comes from not having kids old enough to be your parents as translators.

[ZYX]

Thank you. I never would have guessed that meaning.  I truly mean no disrespect.  I really had no idea what you were saying.  Probably comes from not having kids old enough to be your parents as translators.

Huh?

[Red Arrow]

Huh?

We are playing telephone tag.  Plus, I answered the incorrect post. See other thread.

[TulsaRufnex]

It's not walkable urbanity now, but boy if there is any area that would be great for it to be that way, this would be it.  I would really hope this could be the "urban neighborhood" area for downtown.  

I am pointing out that if the 5k soccer stadium from the 1997 Tulsa Project or the ballpark had been built south of 3rd and Frankfort/Elgin, we'd see proper "infill" which would have already spurred walkable development to create the kind of demand most downtown boosters claim they want... in fact, I would also argue that the BOk Center would have been better located in that same space, rather than across from the courthouse and the pokie.... that said, I certainly don't miss the Towerview Apts....  



I met the previous bar owners of the brick building surrounded by asphalt on 3rd St pictured above... the guy was from New York, I believe... his girlfriend went to Union and they were ballroom dancers... great people... I also met a grand ole lady who went by the name "Snowflake".... the building was that couple's dream, they had plans for using the back area as an outdoor comedy club, etc etc.... I'm not advocating that we take a wrecking ball to every building in that area but that part of town is largely made up of ugly, neglected industrial... the Tribune Lofts in the Brady District made sense but even that building had a lot of vacancies for years.... "Nordham Lofts" or "Bill White Lofts" ?... just doesn't make much sense to me.... today's affordable industrial lofts = tomorrow's meth labs....  

So, when we talk about this demand for "affordable housing" downtown, are we talking about publicly subsidizing housing inside the IDL for downtown waitstaff and busboys and bartenders?  Are we proposing the area have a historical designation as a convenient excuse to get money from the state?  Will "gut rehabs" for buildings that have been neglected for years require more cost than building new units?  Or are we going to lobby for public money to offset costs for new construction?

Because my home in Owen Park is literally a few houses uphill from gut rehabs of homes and duplexes, as well as a few vintage red brick buildings.... units that will be ready and waiting for low wage downtown workers who want affordable living in the area where they work.  And I believe there are other duplexes in Brady Heights that could use good renters... ditto for Crosbie Heights.... based on my home buying hunt, I'd also argue that we already have an "affordable condo glut" in this city, many units are already owned by "investors" -- I balked at buying a condo because I felt if I ultimately had to sell it years later, the unit would be on the market for months and months and I'd be selling to an investor, not a fellow buyer...

I also believe an over-emphasis on residential for the 100+ acres known as the East Village/East End could end up hurting areas like the Pearl District... in the 90s I lived in Indianapolis and noticed a great downtown scene, but some scary and sparse neighborhoods just outside downtown Indy, literally surrounding the downtown oasis/entertainment district that had been created....

Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do.  Dale Carnegie

[rdj]

I suspect we'll see tournament soccer played on OneOK Field in the future.

[RecycleMichael]

Competitive Youth Soccer in Tulsa is really exploding. Last weekend my kids played in a tournament in east Tulsa with 330 teams. They played teams from Texas and Arkansas and all over this state. Soccer teams spend at hotels and restaurants.

Broken Arrow is investing in their complex, River Parks just signed new compacts with a club to manage their fields and there is a new soccer complex opening this year on highway 75 in Mohawk Park.

If you want to see the best public investment I ever saw, go to the soccer complex in Overland Park. The city voted a bond issue to build 12 soccer fields for $36 million. They are state of the art with cooling systems under artificial turf, electronic video boards for scores, great parking, concessions, free wifi, etc. They now host regional and national tournaments 30 weekends a year and help fill 35
hotels and 200 restaurants two nights a week.

http://www.opkansas.org/Things-to-See-And-Do/Soccer-Complex

[DTowner]

I am pointing out that if the 5k soccer stadium from the 1997 Tulsa Project or the ballpark had been built south of 3rd and Frankfort/Elgin, we'd see proper "infill" which would have already spurred walkable development to create the kind of demand most downtown boosters claim they want... in fact, I would also argue that the BOk Center would have been better located in that same space, rather than across from the courthouse and the pokie.... that said, I certainly don't miss the Towerview Apts....  



I met the previous bar owners of the brick building surrounded by asphalt on 3rd St pictured above... the guy was from New York, I believe... his girlfriend went to Union and they were ballroom dancers... great people... I also met a grand ole lady who went by the name "Snowflake".... the building was that couple's dream, they had plans for using the back area as an outdoor comedy club, etc etc.... I'm not advocating that we take a wrecking ball to every building in that area but that part of town is largely made up of ugly, neglected industrial... the Tribune Lofts in the Brady District made sense but even that building had a lot of vacancies for years.... "Nordham Lofts" or "Bill White Lofts" ?... just doesn't make much sense to me.... today's affordable industrial lofts = tomorrow's meth labs....  

So, when we talk about this demand for "affordable housing" downtown, are we talking about publicly subsidizing housing inside the IDL for downtown waitstaff and busboys and bartenders?  Are we proposing the area have a historical designation as a convenient excuse to get money from the state?  Will "gut rehabs" for buildings that have been neglected for years require more cost than building new units?  Or are we going to lobby for public money to offset costs for new construction?

Because my home in Owen Park is literally a few houses uphill from gut rehabs of homes and duplexes, as well as a few vintage red brick buildings.... units that will be ready and waiting for low wage downtown workers who want affordable living in the area where they work.  And I believe there are other duplexes in Brady Heights that could use good renters... ditto for Crosbie Heights.... based on my home buying hunt, I'd also argue that we already have an "affordable condo glut" in this city, many units are already owned by "investors" -- I balked at buying a condo because I felt if I ultimately had to sell it years later, the unit would be on the market for months and months and I'd be selling to an investor, not a fellow buyer...

I also believe an over-emphasis on residential for the 100+ acres known as the East Village/East End could end up hurting areas like the Pearl District... in the 90s I lived in Indianapolis and noticed a great downtown scene, but some scary and sparse neighborhoods just outside downtown Indy, literally surrounding the downtown oasis/entertainment district that had been created....

I'm sure you're right that had the first Tulsa Project proposal passed and built various sports facilities all over downtown we would currently have more development/in-fill in parts of downtown – although most likely very different from what we are seeing happen today.  However, I think that development would be primarily a matter of timing and not necessarily a function of the quality of the ideas in the Tulsa Project.  The failure of the Tulsa Project costs us 8 or 9 years in building a downtown arena, which was always the linchpin for other downtown development.  We've been playing catch up every since.

For now the East End is underutilized and will likely to remain so for a while.  However, patience is required as the other elements of downtown take shape and demand grows to push development.  The East End represents the largest area left in the IDL for development.  I would prefer to see a series of smaller projects like appear to be happening rather than a giant development of the sort that have been proposed there in the past.  Smaller projects have the benefit of learning from the others and making any small corrections along the way that may be necessary.

[TulsaRufnex]

I'm sure you're right that had the first Tulsa Project proposal passed and built various sports facilities all over downtown we would currently have more development/in-fill in parts of downtown – although most likely very different from what we are seeing happen today.  However, I think that development would be primarily a matter of timing and not necessarily a function of the quality of the ideas in the Tulsa Project.  The failure of the Tulsa Project costs us 8 or 9 years in building a downtown arena, which was always the linchpin for other downtown development.  We've been playing catch up every since.

For now the East End is underutilized and will likely to remain so for a while.  However, patience is required as the other elements of downtown take shape and demand grows to push development.  The East End represents the largest area left in the IDL for development.  I would prefer to see a series of smaller projects like appear to be happening rather than a giant development of the sort that have been proposed there in the past.  Smaller projects have the benefit of learning from the others and making any small corrections along the way that may be necessary.

Since the Tulsa Project, the area had been proposed as a movie set , then Mixed-Use I  http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2002/05/27/daily72.html , Mixed-Use with Sports Stadium  http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=2301.0;wap2 , Urban Walmart  http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A15952 , Mixed-Use II  http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100502_11_A1_Anaeri342302&allcom=1

What kind of demand is there currently to live inside the IDL?  What kind of demand can be created/manipulated(?) to spur development inside the IDL?  What is a better use of space?... housing?  entertainment?  small retail?  big box retail?  Who pays?  Who benefits?

And who loses? 

[TulsaRufnex]

Competitive Youth Soccer in Tulsa is really exploding. Last weekend my kids played in a tournament in east Tulsa with 330 teams. They played teams from Texas and Arkansas and all over this state. Soccer teams spend at hotels and restaurants.

Broken Arrow is investing in their complex, River Parks just signed new compacts with a club to manage their fields and there is a new soccer complex opening this year on highway 75 in Mohawk Park.

If you want to see the best public investment I ever saw, go to the soccer complex in Overland Park. The city voted a bond issue to build 12 soccer fields for $36 million. They are state of the art with cooling systems under artificial turf, electronic video boards for scores, great parking, concessions, free wifi, etc. They now host regional and national tournaments 30 weekends a year and help fill 35
hotels and 200 restaurants two nights a week.

http://www.opkansas.org/Things-to-See-And-Do/Soccer-Complex

In 2010, after I discussed the idea of bringing a re-branded Tulsa Roughnecks to the fairgrounds, former Chicago Fire GM Peter Wilt told me in a rather lengthy phone conversation that the conversion of the cement parking lot in the middle of the horsetrack into tournament level soccer fields could be very lucrative; especially with the additional advantage of being next door to a re-vamped Drillers Stadium setup for a pro soccer team.  Karen Keith and others I corresponded with were pleased with the idea but........

A particular meeting with county officials, also in 2010, made me feel that any substantial volunteer efforts on my part to entice financial support for an NASL team at the Fairgrounds would be a colossal waste of time.... pity, because league officials from the NASL were prepared to fly to Tulsa in the summer of 2010 to check out the fairgrounds and drum up publicity, etc.... http://www.nasl.com/

Evidently, the county finds their seldom used parking spaces to be quite lucrative... I was also told the county would NEVER allow a pro soccer team to receive any deal similar to what the Drillers enjoyed, and they also insisted they would be the sole concessions vendor for the team, and that the county would pocket 100% of concessions revenues... it was no surprise to me when I received a response from Cameron-Box Sports indicating that they had no interest in the idea of NASL Soccer at the fairgrounds idea due to "a lack of revenue streams."

So, what kind of revenue has been/is being created or generated to Tulsa County from concessions sales at the old ballpark in the last two years?  Nada.
And 100% of nada is.... well.... nada.  

San Antonio has our arena football team... http://www.sanantoniotalons.com/



They also have an NASL team.... http://www.sanantonioscorpions.com/



....oh, and are building a soccer stadium.... http://www.sanantonioscorpions.com/team-news/item/256-ground-broken-for-scorpions-community-stadium-home-of-san-antonio%27s-new-pro-soccer-team



But we did get a re-tread of a Charlie Mitchell's restaurant on south Yale...

Go figure.

[TulsaRufnex]

Don't hold your breath, Ruff. Bottom line is that land's highest and best use would be a retirement village....but do not be disappointed if it becomes a major big box....

Strangely enough, I'd shop at another big box if one were located north of the Home Depot; most Home Depots are located next to other big boxes anyway...

[Conan71]

In 2010, after I discussed the idea of bringing a re-branded Tulsa Roughnecks to the fairgrounds, former Chicago Fire GM Peter Wilt told me in a rather lengthy phone conversation that the conversion of the cement parking lot in the middle of the horsetrack into tournament level soccer fields could be very lucrative; especially with the additional advantage of being next door to a re-vamped Drillers Stadium setup for a pro soccer team.  Karen Keith and others I correspended with were pleased with the idea but........

A particular meeting with county officials, also in 2010, made me feel that any substantial volunteer efforts on my part to entice financial support for an NASL team at the Fairgrounds would be a colossal waste of time.... pity, because league officials from the NASL were prepared to fly to Tulsa in the summer of 2010 to check out the fairgrounds and drum up publicity, etc.... http://www.nasl.com/

Evidently, the county finds their seldom used parking spaces to be quite lucrative... I was also told the county would NEVER allow a pro soccer team to receive any deal similar to what the Drillers enjoyed, and they also insisted they would be the sole concessions vendor for the team, and that the county would pocket 100% of concessions revenues... it was no surprise to me when I received a response from Cameron-Box Sports indicating that they had no interest in the idea of NASL Soccer at the fairgrounds idea due to "a lack of revenue streams."

So, what kind of revenue has been/is being created or generated to Tulsa County from concessions sales at the old ballpark in the last two years?  Nada.
And 100% of nada is.... well.... nada.  

San Antonio has our arena football team... http://www.sanantoniotalons.com/



They also have an NASL team.... http://www.sanantonioscorpions.com/



....oh, and are building a soccer stadium.... http://www.sanantonioscorpions.com/team-news/item/256-ground-broken-for-scorpions-community-stadium-home-of-san-antonio%27s-new-pro-soccer-team



But we did get a re-tread of a Charlie Mitchell's restaurant on south Yale...

Go figure.

But we did get THE SHOCK!!!!!

[DTowner]

Since the Tulsa Project, the area had been proposed as a movie set , then Mixed-Use I  http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2002/05/27/daily72.html , Mixed-Use with Sports Stadium  http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=2301.0;wap2 , Urban Walmart  http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A15952 , Mixed-Use II  http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100502_11_A1_Anaeri342302&allcom=1

What kind of demand is there currently to live inside the IDL?  What kind of demand can be created/manipulated(?) to spur development inside the IDL?  What is a better use of space?... housing?  entertainment?  small retail?  big box retail?  Who pays?  Who benefits?

And who loses? 

I thought it was my point that these large multi-use developments that have been proposed for the East End and all flamed out are not, in my opinion, the best use of the space.  I would love to see pro soccer in Tulsa, but I don't think a single purpose soccer stadium in the East End is the best use of that space.

As for demand for housing, there seems to be steady demand for housing inside the IDL based on the performace of the houseing that has come online the past few years.  That said, I suspect that demand has its limits, which is why I'd rather see a steady stream of small projects that can meet the demand without getting too far in front of it.

[rdj]

With CUSA bringing their basketball tournament here again next year will their soccer tournament hosted by ONEOK Field be next?