Downtown Parking

[LandArchPoke]

It seems like every topic ends up going into a parking debate, so I figured I would just make it a separate topic so not everything get derailed to talking about parking.

Here is a quick analysis I did (not 100 percent exact, I'm sure I missed a few). I picked Austin and Portland to compare to since those are two downtown I think most of us could agree we would like to see Tulsa's transformed into. I picked an area roughly the same size (close to 1 square mile) in each downtown.



Tulsa :
17 Structured Parking Facilities (Red on Maps)
90 Surface Parking Area (Blue on Maps)

Austin:
31 Structured Parking Facilities
45 Surface Parking Areas

Portland:
21 Structured Parking Facilities
49 Surface Parking Areas

Both Austin and Portland have comparable downtown populations (about 10,000 each). The big difference is Portland has Light Rail and Street Car, Austin does not. Portland also does a much better job at screening it's surface parking area's and even it's structured parking seems to take up less area than Austin's.

The idea that we need anymore structured parking right now really isn't the case. We have more than plenty! We could have another 2-3 years worth of development before we probably need to even think about having another public parking garage constructed.

[TulsaGuy]

Nice breakdown. 

Another point (and I'm not sure if you have the same zoom on each picture) but the amount of surface area of our surface parking is remarkable as well.  We have some BIG surface parking lots. 

[carltonplace]

I posted this on another thread.

My opinion is that we need to make the creation of surface parking less attractive by enacting ordinances that make surface parking lots blend better into the urban fabric of downtown.

We need minimum guidelines for:

Screening
Lighting
Signage
Paving
Curb cuts/Access
landscaping

[tulsa1603]

I posted this on another thread.

My opinion is that we need to make the creation of surface parking less attractive by enacting ordinances that make surface parking lots blend better into the urban fabric of downtown.

We need minimum guidelines for:

Screening
Lighting
Signage
Paving
Curb cuts/Access
landscaping

Agreed.  I can't believe that an entire city block can be paved in asphalt from the edge of sidewalk to edge of sidewalk without so much as a tree or shrub.  The new lot where the old Downtowner motel was is a prime example. 

[dsjeffries]

I picked an area roughly the same size (close to 1 square mile) in each downtown.

Our downtown is about 2.6 square miles. It might make an even more compelling argument if all of each downtown was included; we could, for example, pick on area of any three of these downtowns to include or exclude, which would skew the results some.

Tulsa :
17 Structured Parking Facilities (Red on Maps)
90 Surface Parking Area (Blue on Maps)

Austin:
31 Structured Parking Facilities
45 Surface Parking Areas

Portland:
21 Structured Parking Facilities
49 Surface Parking Areas

I also think there's some danger in just counting the number of parking lots/structured parking, and instead, the focus should be on both a) the land area in each downtown that each takes up, and b) how many spaces are contained in that area. While Portland may have a higher number of surface lots than Austin, the total land area could be half that of Austin's. It really does matter if we're talking about 49 small, 12- to 20-space surface lots in Portland compared to 45 half- or full-block surface lots in Austin. Same goes for Tulsa, since we seem to be fans of leveling entire sections of downtown for parking.

Have you looked at land area and spaces for these cities?

The idea that we need anymore structured parking right now really isn't the case. We have more than plenty! We could have another 2-3 years worth of development before we probably need to even think about having another public parking garage constructed.

I disagree. With a few strategically-placed structured parking facilities, we could eliminate the need for dozens of our massive seas of asphalt, opening up many blocks for retail and housing development. On that same token, though, we could (partially) eliminate the need for both structured and surface lots by way of an investment in a real transit system.

[carltonplace]

the first thing I noticed in the maps is how badly the IDL chokes in our Downtown. I wish we could cover/top the south leg and maybe even get rid of the east leg (I know, I know...pipe dream).

[Hoss]

the first thing I noticed in the maps is how badly the IDL chokes in our Downtown. I wish we could cover/top the south leg and maybe even get rid of the east leg (I know, I know...pipe dream).

Also take a federal act for ANY of the legs of the IDL (North and West leg are I-244; South and east are unsigned I-444), but I've said that a couple of times on here before.

[DTowner]

While interesting, these comparisons are limited.  It would be interesting to know the number of parking spaces.  Also, the location of parking is important.  Some of Tulsa's largest surface lots are around TCC.  Those spaces are not really useful for any other events downtown (without a trolley - another thread).

[LandArchPoke]

Nice breakdown. 

Another point (and I'm not sure if you have the same zoom on each picture) but the amount of surface area of our surface parking is remarkable as well.  We have some BIG surface parking lots. 

The zoom (scale) of all the maps are the same.

Our downtown is about 2.6 square miles. It might make an even more compelling argument if all of each downtown was included; we could, for example, pick on area of any three of these downtowns to include or exclude, which would skew the results some.

I also think there's some danger in just counting the number of parking lots/structured parking, and instead, the focus should be on both a) the land area in each downtown that each takes up, and b) how many spaces are contained in that area. While Portland may have a higher number of surface lots than Austin, the total land area could be half that of Austin's. It really does matter if we're talking about 49 small, 12- to 20-space surface lots in Portland compared to 45 half- or full-block surface lots in Austin. Same goes for Tulsa, since we seem to be fans of leveling entire sections of downtown for parking.

Have you looked at land area and spaces for these cities?

I tried to pick the urban cores of both cities ( the bold black line is the only areas I counted), which is why the Tulsa one is kind of all over the place, and doesn't include the areas in the south part of downtown. I could have expanded it and shown the Pearl District in Portland and the University area in Austin and that would have allowed me to show all of downtown Tulsa and uptown but I think you get that the proportions are about the same, if not even worse. You can look and judge yourself at the shear size of our surface lots compared to the other cities. If anything I skewed the results to look better for Tulsa.

I disagree. With a few strategically-placed structured parking facilities, we could eliminate the need for dozens of our massive seas of asphalt, opening up many blocks for retail and housing development. On that same token, though, we could (partially) eliminate the need for both structured and surface lots by way of an investment in a real transit system.

I may ask where do you think we need parking structures to go in? We have 3 with in a short distance of the Blue Dome district, several surrounding the BOk Center, the Williams Garage expansion and the Pop Culture Museum garage will serve the Brady District just fine with plenty of over flow parking at OSU Tulsa for baseball games.

The mentality that we have to have a garage with in a block of everything downtown is nonsense and we will be doing nothing to add value to any district, and just adding to the glut of parking we already have.

Also to note, I did highlight Congress Ave and 6th Street in Austin because those are the two main streets that most of the entertainment is based off of in downtown. Look at the parking surrounding it. If we want the Elgin or the Boston corridor to develop into anything worth while we need to keep parking away from at least the main half block along the corridors.

Here's an idea, since the city has a massive garage that sits empty week nights and weekends, why not put a little money into it and have it open to the public after 5pm and on weekends. This way it opens parking for the Blue Dome.

I have seen talk on here of construction of a garage at 5th and Main and in my opinion I think it is a horrible idea! If it's done then it needs to be integrated with living units above it at least or even a hotel with commercial on the ground floor. The Elgin corridor has high potential and ruining the character of it with a massive parking garage the size of the entire block will ruin it. The same as if we plopped a parking garage into the middle of Brady District. There are already 3 garages in the area around 4th and Cincinnati that are not full on evening or weekends, that are 3 blocks away from the main area of the Blue Dome.

[Townsend]

http://www.newson6.com/story/18000500/tulsas-osu-medical-center-to-replace-parking-garage-with-new-structure

Tulsa's OSU Medical Center To Replace Parking Garage

TULSA, Oklahoma - Tulsa's OSU Medical Center is replacing its parking garage with a $9.7 million, three-story structure.

"The revitalizations to our parking garage and surrounding parking area will renew both our image and campus, benefiting our corner of downtown Tulsa. We are and always have been proud to be located in the heart of downtown Tulsa. We look forward to sharing our aesthetic improvements with our surrounding neighbors, those who drive by (both on downtown streets and utilize the adjacent highways) and with our OSUMC family as well. This external change will be the first transformative improvement to the campus that anyone who drives by will see," said Jan Slater, OSUMC CEO.

The 249-bed downtown Tulsa hospital acquired the current steel and concrete garage from Southwest Airlines in 1976, importing the superstructure from Dallas' Love Field after years of use at that location.

Slater says while the garage's superstructure remains in good shape, worn concrete must be replaced. But after looking at several alternatives, the OSU Medical Center Trust decided the most cost-effective plan was to tear down the old garage and build a new one.

The new parking garage along with current surface spaces will provide the OSU Medical Center with 1,040 parking spaces.

[DTowner]

http://www.newson6.com/story/18000500/tulsas-osu-medical-center-to-replace-parking-garage-with-new-structure

Tulsa's OSU Medical Center To Replace Parking Garage

Good news - that is one ugly parking garage.

[TheTed]

Sitting at Baxter's eating dinner you can't help but think, "did they forget to finish construction on that parking garage?" It's gotta be the hands-down winner for ugliest garage in the area.

[we vs us]

The difficult thing about surface parking is that, once it's created, it's extremely difficult to get rid of.  Consider:  the value of the land has to rise enough to make it worth either replacing with a commercial/residential building or parking demand has to rise enough to warrant a multiple level parking structure.  Until that happens you'll continue to have surface lots dominate. 

DTowner also brings up a good point:  downtown has "micro regions," for lack of a better term, and while demand for parking might be huge near Brady, it's probably quite low down near TTC.

[jacobi]

The difficult thing about surface parking is that, once it's created, it's extremely difficult to get rid of.  Consider:  the value of the land has to rise enough to make it worth either replacing with a commercial/residential building or parking demand has to rise enough to warrant a multiple level parking structure.  Until that happens you'll continue to have surface lots dominate.

I've been saying that since I joined TNF.  Remember that when that land was first developed it was all one lot.  It was slowly consolidated then demolished.  Having to develope a whole lot, rather than a half lot, quarter lot or even single address lot is very expensive.  I've said this before.  The parking lots should be broken back up into individual parcels then auctioned off.

[LandArchPoke]

I've been saying that since I joined TNF.  Remember that when that land was first developed it was all one lot.  It was slowly consolidated then demolished.  Having to develope a whole lot, rather than a half lot, quarter lot or even single address lot is very expensive.  I've said this before.  The parking lots should be broken back up into individual parcels then auctioned off.

I remembered seeing someone say this on here before I couldn't remember who. You hit the nail on the head though. If we were able to break up these surface lots into smaller sections and sell them that way, it would be a lot easier for smaller developers to come in and build on these instead of having to have $50-200 Million to buy the block and build on the whole thing. This really should be something the city looks into doing on the Elgin Corridor. If we could have smaller parcels for sell all up and down Elgin street you'd see it develop more like 6th Street in Austin.



Here's an example of the parking surrounding the Blue Dome:

Walking distance (Green Lines) from the Williams Garage would be 1170 feet to 1st and Elgin
from the City Garage if they opened it nights and weekends would be 400 feet to 1st and Elgin
4th & Cincinnati Northwest Garage is 1040 feet to 3rd and Elgin
4th & Cincinnati Northeast Garage is 830 feet 3rd and Elgin
4th & Cincinnati South Garage is 1320 feet 3rd and Elgin

Blake Ewing has mentioned on here that they are talking about constructing a garage on the block of 4th and 5th / Detroit and Elgin. I would ask is it needed? No it's not.

Split that lot in two at least and develop the frontage along Elgin with retail and commercial and push the parking structure along Detroit. Honestly there is enough parking with in a short walking distance to the Blue Dome we don't need another parking garage just so people can walk 300 feet instead of 1000 feet. Break these parking lots up and make it easier to develop then when the other garages start nearing capacity on weekends and night THEN build another one to accommodate visitors.