Mitt Romney - prep school bully

[we vs us]

Guess I can't see how Rummy didn't have the oomph to tailor the mission to whatever size he wanted.  Especially since Al Zawahri was second only to Bin Laden and a crucial target.

And I guess the other part is completely worth dismissing, then?  That Obama won't get credit for a hugely successful black ops mission into Pakistan, while Rummy gets plaudits because he couldn't pull the trigger on a similar mission?  

The math doesn't add up on that one.  

[Conan71]

http://articles.cnn.com/2002-09-27/politics/bush.war.talk_1_homeland-security-senators-from-both-parties-republican-phil-gramm?_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS

Bush calls Saddam 'the guy who tried to kill my dad'

D'oh!

U.S. Navy ships launched 23 Tomahawk missiles against the headquarters of the Iraqi Intelligence Service yesterday in what President Clinton said was a "firm and commensurate" response to Iraq's plan to assassinate former president George Bush in mid-April.

The attack was meant to strike at the building where Iraqi officials had plotted against Bush, organized other unspecified terrorist actions and directed repressive internal security measures, senior U.S. officials said.

Clinton, speaking in a televised address to the nation at 7:40 last night, said he ordered the attack to send three messages to the Iraqi leadership: "We will combat terrorism. We will deter aggression. We will protect our people."

Clinton said he ordered the attack after receiving "compelling evidence" from U.S. intelligence officials that Bush had been the target of an assassination plot and that the plot was "directed and pursued by the Iraqi Intelligence Service."

"It was an elaborate plan devised by the Iraqi government and directed against a former president of the United States because of actions he took as president," Clinton said. Bush led the coalition that drove Iraq from Kuwait in the 1991 Persian Gulf War. "As such, the Iraqi attack against President Bush was an attack against our country and against all Americans," Clinton said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/iraq/timeline/062793.htm

[Red Arrow]

Yes, our relations with Pakistan are much worse now.

So there is now less to lose by ticking off Pakistan.

[we vs us]

So there is now less to lose by ticking off Pakistan.

You will not be getting my vote for Secretary of State. 

[Red Arrow]

You will not be getting my vote for Secretary of State. 

I wasn't counting on it.

[Conan71]

Guess I can't see how Rummy didn't have the oomph to tailor the mission to whatever size he wanted.  Especially since Al Zawahri was second only to Bin Laden and a crucial target.

And I guess the other part is completely worth dismissing, then?  That Obama won't get credit for a hugely successful black ops mission into Pakistan, while Rummy gets plaudits because he couldn't pull the trigger on a similar mission?  

The math doesn't add up on that one.  

Of course Obama gets credit.  

Somehow though this discussion turned into a Rumsfeld reach-around when it's mentioned that anyone else sitting in that chair last year would have given the same orders given the same set of circumstances and intelligence.  

By comparison, the risk was nowhere near the reward in the Rummy incident.  Several hundred soldiers to get some second and third tier AQ asshats vs. a couple of dozen or less to get the grand prize.

What's so tough with that sort of math?  Oh I forget, you were an English major

[we vs us]

I wasn't counting on it.

That's a shame.  I'm pretty persuasive amongst my caucus.

[we vs us]

Of course Obama gets credit.  

Somehow though this discussion turned into a Rumsfeld reach-around when it's mentioned that anyone else sitting in that chair last year would have given the same orders given the same set of circumstances and intelligence.  

By comparison, the risk was nowhere near the reward in the Rummy incident.  Several hundred soldiers to get some second and third tier AQ asshats vs. a couple of dozen or less to get the grand prize.

What's so tough with that sort of math?  Oh I forget, you were an English major

Easy pal, even though I can string some words together, I'm quick with a graphing calculator. 

My point is that you minimize Obama's success by saying "aw any old person in that chair would've done the same thing,"  and the evidence that that's not true is quoted in the article.  Rummy was sitting in that chair and didn't give the order.  And for all we know Rummy did the right thing, but the fact that Obama did do it, with similar amounts of risk involved and similar sovereignty pitfalls speaks volumes. 

[Red Arrow]

I'm pretty persuasive amongst my caucus.

Me too.

[Red Arrow]

Easy pal, even though I can string some words together, I'm quick with a graphing calculator.

I do OK with a grammar checker and dictionary. 

My point is that you minimize Obama's success by saying "aw any old person in that chair would've done the same thing,"  and the evidence that that's not true is quoted in the article.  Rummy was sitting in that chair and didn't give the order.  And for all we know Rummy did the right thing, but the fact that Obama did do it, with similar amounts of risk involved and similar sovereignty pitfalls speaks volumes. 

I give credit to Obama for making the decision he did.  My comment about ticking off Pakistan was not entirely tongue in cheek though.   

[TulsaRufnex]

Please, you are making yourself look ridiculous.  Aside from being a top security priority, it was a once-in-a-lifetime PR coup for any leader that no president would have refused to act on- especially after how hard Clinton got crapped on for not acting on the opportunity to seize or kill him in the 1990s.

Yawn.  Yeah, somebody's making themselves look ridiculous... and it ain't RM....

Obama earned the right to tout Osama Bin Laden raid
Detractors are taking a page from Karl Rove's playbook
By Richard A. Clarke / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Published: Wednesday, May 2, 2012

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/obama-earned-tout-osama-bin-laden-raid-article-1.1070838

What would be best for the country on the issue of counterterrorism is if we could somehow manage to return it to a nonpartisan matter. Unfortunately, this early in the election year, that seems unlikely. Therefore, voters should be advised to look carefully at claims that are made by both sides, and stick to the facts.

Ten facts that tell the true story:

First, the Bush administration moved assets to Iraq away from the search for Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Second, in 2006, the Bush administration closed the Bin Laden unit at the CIA in a reorganization.

Third, Bush changed his rhetoric from wanting Bin Laden "dead or alive" to publicly minimizing his importance. (Mitt Romney followed this pattern, saying in 2007, "It's not worth moving heaven and earth spending billions of dollars just trying to catch one person.")

Fourth, in 2007, candidate Obama said he would send troops into Pakistan to get Bin Laden, unilaterally if necessary, and was criticized by leading Republicans (Romney included) for saying so.

Fifth, after he took office, Obama directed an increased priority be given to getting Bin Laden.

Sixth, the President personally participated in repeated high-level meetings on his aggressive new strategy for getting Al Qaeda and its leaders in Pakistan.

Seventh, Obama ordered a dramatic increase in drone attacks in Pakistan, wiping out Al Qaeda leaders and making it almost impossible for Bin Laden's senior commanders to operate there.

Eighth, the President rejected cabinet members' advice and ordered the raid that killed Bin Laden to go ahead.

Ninth, it was the commander-in-chief who ordered that additional helicopters be made part of the operation, a decision that turned out to be crucial.

Tenth, Bin Laden is dead.

This is not to say that counterterrorism professionals weren't hard at work in the Bush administration trying to do what they could to get Bin Laden. But it is to note that the elected and politically appointed officials of that administration did much less than they could have done to get Bin Laden both before 9/11 and after it.

[Conan71]

Easy pal, even though I can string some words together, I'm quick with a graphing calculator. 

My point is that you minimize Obama's success by saying "aw any old person in that chair would've done the same thing,"  and the evidence that that's not true is quoted in the article.  Rummy was sitting in that chair and didn't give the order.  And for all we know Rummy did the right thing, but the fact that Obama did do it, with similar amounts of risk involved and similar sovereignty pitfalls speaks volumes. 

Rummy didn't have final say.  All the SOD can do on an operation like that is run it on up the ladder if he/she thinks it's a worthy endeavor.  An operation like that must cross not only the DOD, but State and Executive and probably an agency or two I'm leaving out.  We have no idea how many other false starts which could have been shitcanned by someone in the CIA, DOD, or even the executive branch from the 1990's to now.

My basic point should make perfect sense to the more liberal of you in the room: CEO's get to take credit for the work of the peons.  That seems to piss most of you off in the corporate world, but lets face it, Obama didn't pull the trigger and it took far less of an extraordinary act of courage to order the raid on the OBL compound than it did to jump out of the helicopter and put a double tap in OBL's temple.

I'm quite certain the president didn't overlook the seriousness of sending 20 some-odd Americans into harm's way.  For the umpteenth time, I applaud him for giving the order! 

There's simply no way to prove someone else lucky enough to be POTUS at the time wouldn't have given the same order.  From a purely PR standpoint (and yes, at least 1/2 or better of the job is good PR) we needed good news on WOT, and OBL needed to assume room temperature to help make the world a safer place.

The Rumsfeld story and using some obscure Romney sound bites is nothing but a straw man when trying to say whether or not anyone else in the same position as President Obama last year would have done the same thing.

[nathanm]

The Rumsfeld story and using some obscure Romney sound bites is nothing but a straw man when trying to say whether or not anyone else in the same position as President Obama last year would have done the same thing.

Sure, were it not for Romney's own words last go-round.

[RecycleMichael]

There's simply no way to prove someone else lucky enough to be POTUS at the time wouldn't have given the same order. The Rumsfeld story and using some obscure Romney sound bites is nothing but a straw man when trying to say whether or not anyone else in the same position as President Obama last year would have done the same thing.

What a wussy argument. We can't use Bush, Rumsfeld or Romney's actual words, but somehow deep down you know that he would do the same things Obama did. I am amazed that you know exactly what everyone else would do. I won't call you conan, instead refer to you as Carnac the magnificent from the old Johnny Carson show.

Lucky enough to be POTUS? Do you think Obama got to be president by some scratch-off ticket or by being the tenth caller to a radio show? That comment shows how biased you are against Obama.

[Conan71]

What a wussy argument. We can't use Bush, Rumsfeld or Romney's actual words, but somehow deep down you know that he would do the same things Obama did. I am amazed that you know exactly what everyone else would do. I won't call you conan, instead refer to you as Carnac the magnificent from the old Johnny Carson show.

Are you so dim you can't see that's precisely what you and others are doing by saying what others wouldn't do?