Am I Responsible For My Neighbor's Children Education?

[AquaMan]

And by the way, it's speaks volumes that two posters in this forum that are relatively close ideologically can disagree on something like this. And we have in the past as well. How about the other side? I mean, other than RM and the 2008 election stuff.   I keed I keed.

The other side? We're all on different sides? Different views but all still on the same team.

Anyway, not uncommon at all. Check back to the thread about making Sudafed  by prescription only. I generally like Nathan's views but we viscerally disagreed on that one as well as some funding issues. Perhaps you're skipping over threads.

Red. It bothers me too when I hear that phrase misused. I actually went back and corrected it before posting. Its the little things in life.....

[Red Arrow]

Red. It bothers me too when I hear that phrase misused. I actually went back and corrected it before posting. Its the little things in life.....

Paying attention to details has generally served me well as an engineer.

[nathanm]

Paying attention to details has generally served me well as an engineer.

What is it with engineers being too literal to understand sarcasm?

[Conan71]

That's just plain incorrect. The City of Tulsa through infrastructure maintenance, economic development, capital improvements, services, and security creates much more commerce than a 5013c that uses it's religulous tax preferences to gouge the rest of us and also to avoid their civic responsibility. The Warren Foundation does many good things. Yet, they also feed off the tax payer in the form of corporate welfare. Monteraux is a retirement village composed of many ethnic and religious citizens. They have restaurants and bars and services that compete with profit oriented assisted living communities and capitalistic enterprises. Why should they get an unfair competitive advantage? After all, their infrastructure was paid for not only by their clients but by their competitors as well. Was the tax code provision for 5013c's designed for this socialistic purpose? Should they force all their clients to attend mass to comply with the law? If this were in the downtown, you all would be insisting that the retirement communities owned by the Baptists or the Episcopalians need to help with the ball park. Fact of the matter, downtown could use some wise old citizens but it's hard competing with the suburbs. And one more thing, do you think the ad valorem tax bill would be borne by the owners or passed through to the occupants?

Look, I agree, Montreaux is really testing the boundaries of tax exemption for the Warren Foundation and I understand the burr under your saddle.   The Channels would have presented a similar quandary if they would have held out for a property tax exemption.  However, there's absolutely not even a chance in Hell that the city and/or county of Tulsa put as much back into local commerce with LESS $$ subsidy from tax payers than the tax exemptions granted to the WF.  No freaking way. 

The WF might get, what, 10 to 15mm a year in property tax breaks if that.  How much to the city and county governments take in again via property tax, sales tax, etc?

Keep in mind the WF's various enterprises also serve to collect sales tax on site.

I suspect overall, the WF contributes far more to the local economy and tax base than you realize. 

[Teatownclown]

there's absolutely not even a chance in Hell that the city and/or county of Tulsa put as much back into local commerce with LESS $$ subsidy from tax payers than the tax exemptions granted to the WF.  

Sorry, I lost you here. I don't mean to minimize the picture here with your divergence from the original issue... the citizenry is getting less reimbursement than the 5013c gets in discounts? Sorry, I just don't think that was the discussion I initiated.

Do you really think our tax code was designed to allow churches to make tax free money on retirement villages? They're glorified apartments for god's sake.

[guido911]

I suspect overall, the WF contributes far more to the local economy and tax base than you realize. 

You have hit on precisely my point in all of this. It's all about taxes paid, or that the rich are bending over the system, and nothing else. This is why people who do give from the heart should start telling those bitching to get bent. I'm curious, how many people in the middle to upper class are out there bitching that people who earn more than them aren't paying enough in taxes? I honestly cannot even remember (well, until now of course), much less whine about, how much the  two surgeons across the street from me earn or paid in taxes, same goes for the retirees next door, etc. I seriously do not care what waterboy or anyone else earns or pays.

Now, to the subject, before assuming that Montereau is getting over, has anyone here read the pleadings on file in the court action first?  Or, did we just once again haul off and pretend we know the law more than those arguing it. Here's a link to the docket. I'll let the learned @ssclown interpret.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=2524150&db=Tulsa

[RecycleMichael]

I are a graduate of public schooling.

I want my neighbor's kids smart as they can be. Then they will understand the big words I yell at their dogs for barking all night.

[nathanm]

I think all of you need to see this one hour film: http://video.pbs.org/video/2236099589

[Teatownclown]

 "one example of how scholarship programs have been twisted to benefit private schools at the expense of the neediest children."

Public Money Finds Back Door to Private Schools
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/education/scholarship-funds-meant-for-needy-benefit-private-schools.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120522

"the money will be channeled to the family that raised it."

"While the scholarship programs have helped many children whose parents would have to scrimp or work several jobs to send them to private schools, the money has also been used to attract star football players, expand the payrolls of the nonprofit scholarship groups and spread the theology of creationism, interviews and documents show. "

"Most of the private schools are religious. Nearly a quarter of the participating schools in Georgia require families to make a profession of religious faith, according to their Web sites. Many of those schools adhere to a fundamentalist brand of Christianity. A commonly used sixth-grade science text retells the creation story contained in Genesis, omitting any other explanation. An economics book used in some high schools holds that the Antichrist — a world ruler predicted in the New Testament — will one day control what is bought and sold."

"The programs are insulated from provisions requiring church-state separation because the donations are collected and distributed by the nonprofit scholarship groups."

[heironymouspasparagus]

What is it with engineers being too literal to understand sarcasm?

Probably because so many got a good dose of Asperger Syndrome (on the autism scale).

[heironymouspasparagus]

I think all of you need to see this one hour film: http://video.pbs.org/video/2236099589

Looks good - for the few minutes I have listened so far.  Will look later.

[nathanm]

Looks good - for the few minutes I have listened so far.  Will look later.

I think it's funny that Arizonans apparently don't want their kids to be engaged socially and politically. I suspect they aren't the only ones who are afraid that an informed and engaged populace will put a stop to the lobbyist gravy train.

[guido911]

"one example of how scholarship programs have been twisted to benefit private schools at the expense of the neediest children."

Public Money Finds Back Door to Private Schools
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/education/scholarship-funds-meant-for-needy-benefit-private-schools.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120522

"the money will be channeled to the family that raised it."

"While the scholarship programs have helped many children whose parents would have to scrimp or work several jobs to send them to private schools, the money has also been used to attract star football players, expand the payrolls of the nonprofit scholarship groups and spread the theology of creationism, interviews and documents show. "

"Most of the private schools are religious. Nearly a quarter of the participating schools in Georgia require families to make a profession of religious faith, according to their Web sites. Many of those schools adhere to a fundamentalist brand of Christianity. A commonly used sixth-grade science text retells the creation story contained in Genesis, omitting any other explanation. An economics book used in some high schools holds that the Antichrist — a world ruler predicted in the New Testament — will one day control what is bought and sold."

"The programs are insulated from provisions requiring church-state separation because the donations are collected and distributed by the nonprofit scholarship groups."

I got no problem with a bit of my tax dollars working its way into private schools. Folks don't like religious "indoctrination", well I don't like this indoctrination:

or this...

[BKDotCom]

I'll go back to our constitution and find where the right to education paid for by your neighbor is found.

Same place where it details taxation, libraries, parks, roads, police, fire, whatnot, and etc

[guido911]

Same place where it details taxation, libraries, parks, roads, police, fire, whatnot, and etc

Now your talking-except that we are talking really about state rights/power and not federal constitutional stuff. This was sort of my point. It becomes a federal problem when folks start bitching about public money (translation: taxes paid by people) and if religion is implicated. With the Lemon test perhaps losing favor, maybe our courts will finally stick a dagger into this "separation of church" meme and adopt a simpler and more reasonable approach to address this "conflict".