Romney's offshore investments

[RecycleMichael]

You really don't see the difference?

He is running for president. I expect a higher standard. I guess you guys don't.

Yes. I am sure that John Kerry and his wife made money together after they were married. Show me an example of him putting a single penny offshore.

[Conan71]

Apple Ireland is something like 5 people and a couple of servers. You really think companies should be allowed to open offices in other countries for accounting purposes and through legal trickery transmute US income into foreign income to escape taxation? We aren't Greece, for crying out loud.

RA, you seem not to understand that the laws of the land have been riddled with loopholes that not only give special dispensation to the (very) rich to help them avoid taxes, but they are riddled with loopholes specifically designed for certain individuals or companies. The corruption is endemic. Why is this OK with you?

Simplify the tax codes and lower the corporate tax rate. Simple proof of why companies choose to relocate jobs overseas.  Taxes are a drag on the bottom line and they cost Americans jobs.  I have no idea how many people Apple employs in Ireland, I would think your guess of five is absurd.  Cisco apparently found Ireland to be a nice tax haven- moving many jobs there.  How many do they employ in China due to the lower cost of operating there?

Or better yet, let's start reducing our thirst for tax revenue by getting a handle on spending which requires so much revenue in the first place.

As to your note to RA, you don't think Warren Buffet and other ardent Obama supporters don't spend a ton of cash lobbying for reduced tax rates? 

[Conan71]

You really don't see the difference?

He is running for president. I expect a higher standard. I guess you guys don't.

Yes. I am sure that John Kerry and his wife made money together after they were married. Show me an example of him putting a single penny offshore.

Other than Daily Koz' obsession with his wealth, is there a reason he should suddenly be punished and forced to pay millions upon millions in taxation that no other American is required to if he doesn't need to bring this cash on shore as income?  He's not engaged in illegal activity.  Why should I despise someone due to legally-gained wealth?  Where was your outrage in 2000 or 2004 with Bush?

You are being incredibly petty.  I didn't realize until now just how fearful you are that Obama might really have to stand on his own record.

[Hoss]

Other than Daily Koz' obsession with his wealth, is there a reason he should suddenly be punished and forced to pay millions upon millions in taxation that no other American is required to if he doesn't need to bring this cash on shore as income?  He's not engaged in illegal activity.  Why should I despise someone due to legally-gained wealth?  Where was your outrage in 2000 or 2004 with Bush?

You are being incredibly petty.  I didn't realize until now just how fearful you are that Obama might really have to stand on his own record.

If Romney has to stand on his, however, which one will he stand on?  He has so many iterations now that it's confusing.

[Red Arrow]

Apple Ireland is something like 5 people and a couple of servers. You really think companies should be allowed to open offices in other countries for accounting purposes and through legal trickery transmute US income into foreign income to escape taxation? We aren't Greece, for crying out loud.

RA, you seem not to understand that the laws of the land have been riddled with loopholes that not only give special dispensation to the (very) rich to help them avoid taxes, but they are riddled with loopholes specifically designed for certain individuals or companies. The corruption is endemic. Why is this OK with you?

Why is it that you don't understand that there are loopholes for the little guy too?  The exemption for yourself and dependents, standard or itemized deduction, deferred tax savings for retirement (401K) are mostly significant loopholes for regular people and don't amount to a hill of beans for the very rich.  For a single taxpayer:  Standard deduction $5800, one exemption $3700, 401K max about $15,000 totals about $24,500 that immediately comes off your taxable income.  That makes a big difference to me but not so much to someone making $45 million per year and paying over $6.2 million in income tax.  The tax code is full of special benefits in order to steer society.  Buy a home, have all the taxpayers help pay the interest on your mortgage.  Have everyone else help pay for your kids via extra deductions and more earned income credit than if you are single or even married with no kids.  Give a lot of money to tax deductible charities?  If you itemize, you aren't really giving that much since you get to deduct it and I help subsidize your gift through higher tax rates to make up for your choice of charities.  

Income tax would be a lot more fair without loopholes for anyone but be careful what you wish for, you may get it.

[Red Arrow]

You really don't see the difference?

He is running for president. I expect a higher standard. I guess you guys don't.

Yes. I am sure that John Kerry and his wife made money together after they were married. Show me an example of him putting a single penny offshore.

I expect Warren Buffet to pay more tax voluntarily because he complains about not paying enough.  Most liberals don't see it that way.  I expect a higher standard.  I guess you guys don't.

There are ways for the wealthy to "hide" income from taxes right here on-shore.  I would be extremely surprised if JK and wife do not take advantage of them.  Show me they haven't.  I believe that if no one had said anything about his tax bill on his yacht, he would have conveniently neglected to mention it to MA.   You may fall into line that he always intended to pay the tax but I don't.

[nathanm]

As to your note to RA, you don't think Warren Buffet and other ardent Obama supporters don't spend a ton of cash lobbying for reduced tax rates? 

There's a reason I regularly note that the Democrats are complicit in much of what is wrong with our country.

RA, the loopholes for the little guy hardly add up to a hill of beans for the country as a whole, but you might note that they mostly apply equally to those with higher incomes as well. They get more benefit by virtue of having more money. (The mortgage interest deduction applies up to a million dollars of loan per home, for example) Moreover, they underwent significant debate in Congress, unlike the nifty little provisions that get slipped in quietly at the behest of lobbyists.

Conan, Apple does have around 3300 employees in Ireland at this point. iTunes is still not an Irish business. It's an obvious tax dodge. I'm not quite sure why you think that should be any more legal than me setting up an Irish shell company to receive my paychecks. The vast majority of the business is done in the US. The ultimate decision maker is in the US. Google and others do the same thing.

The worst cases are when it's a purely accounting dodge. A foreign subsidiary "buys" product from a US factory essentially at cost and then "sells" it to the subsidiary distributor in the US at very near the selling price to retailers and by dint of some journal entries that have no relation to the real world all the profit is made overseas. This is not at all uncommon. At one time tax shelters were thought of as sleazy even when they were legal. What changed?

[Red Arrow]

RA, the loopholes for the little guy hardly add up to a hill of beans for the country as a whole, but you might note that they mostly apply equally to those with higher incomes as well. They get more benefit by virtue of having more money. (The mortgage interest deduction applies up to a million dollars of loan per home, for example) Moreover, they underwent significant debate in Congress, unlike the nifty little provisions that get slipped in quietly at the behest of lobbyists.

I have no problem with the standard deduction etc applying equally to rich and famous as the poor and obscure.  I also have no problem with the concept that the first/bottom dollars the rich earn go toward their living expenses just the same as yours or my dollars.    Proportionately the rich benefit a lot less from the bottom end loopholes than you or I do.  It used to be that a Million dollar home was a really big deal.  It's still way out of my range.  To think that the mortgage interest deduction with a $1 million loan limit is a major benefit to the really rich is not realistic.  The $1 million loan limit actually looks like an un-loophole for the rich compared to the rest of us.

Nifty provisions sponsored by lobbyists happen when you have to pass the bill to find out what's in it.

[nathanm]

Nifty provisions sponsored by lobbyists happen when you have to pass the bill to find out what's in it.

If only. It happens because the vast majority of those in our ruling class are corrupt.

To think that the mortgage interest deduction with a $1 million loan limit is a major benefit to the really rich is not realistic.

Don't forget, they get two of them.

[Red Arrow]

If only. It happens because the vast majority of those in our ruling class are corrupt.

Don't forget, they get two of them.

One, two, it doesn't really matter.  If you have $1000. in your pocket the chances of you worrying about something that costs $2.00 are pretty small.

[Conan71]

Conan, Apple does have around 3300 employees in Ireland at this point. iTunes is still not an Irish business. It's an obvious tax dodge. I'm not quite sure why you think that should be any more legal than me setting up an Irish shell company to receive my paychecks. The vast majority of the business is done in the US. The ultimate decision maker is in the US. Google and others do the same thing.

So our tax code has cost 3300 American jobs in this single instance.  How many more have been lost?

Apple is engaging in a perfectly legal activity.  If they were not, they would be hauled into court or fined heavily.  Our tax code apparently permits this.

Secondly, how do you know iTunes is not chartered in Ireland?  The federal government cannot compel a multi-national company to run all operations from the U.S.

[nathanm]

Secondly, how do you know iTunes is not chartered in Ireland?  The federal government cannot compel a multi-national company to run all operations from the U.S.

The company that earns the profit is "Irish". The business is run from the US. It's pretty much the same scam as companies like TransOcean having a mail drop in Bermuda as their headquarters even though they not only don't, but legally can't under Bermudan law, run their business from Bermuda.

[Ed W]

Oh, I think I understand this better now.  Those ordinary Americans who go to work every day and pay their taxes every year are mere chumps, you know, the people that Willard so famously likes to fire.  Yet our would-be plutocrats like Romney and Trump are better suited to be presidential candidates because they know how to avoid paying taxes both at home and abroad. 

Glad we cleared that up.

[nathanm]

That's pretty much the size of it, Ed. Unfortunately, we are all chumps because we keep letting these exit holes get away with it. Well, at least those of us who don't have millions of dollars to spend on tax shelters and the political connections to keep the IRS from looking too closely at them.

[Conan71]

Oh, I think I understand this better now.  Those ordinary Americans who go to work every day and pay their taxes every year are mere chumps, you know, the people that Willard so famously likes to fire.  Yet our would-be plutocrats like Romney and Trump are better suited to be presidential candidates because they know how to avoid paying taxes both at home and abroad. 

Glad we cleared that up.

Wow!  What favors has Obama done for you and your union the last four years, other than sound bites?  Might be interesting if someone like Bain ends up saving AA and possibly your job.