Poo In The River

[Teatownclown]

The portion of the Arkansas River running through Tulsa is the cleanest it has been in my lifetime. Ozone levels in Tulsa County have improved 8 of the last ten years. Tulsa's drinking water is among the purest in America. more than 25,000 trees have been planted in Tulsa in the last four years. Tulsa is about to launch the most comprehensive recycling program for the region.

Don't listen to Chicken Little. The sky isn't falling.

The river being the cleanest in your lifetime don't mean Jack....the rivers in Pittsburgh used to burn but I still wouldn't get in them....nor Grand Lake which has gotten much worse. Ozone standards have been eased the past 8 years so explain that and how the measurements help us get by on attainment. I drink bottled.... fluoride is a death wish. I live in the forest. Can't argue with the recycling program which I gave you credit but unfortunately your arrogance let it blow right through you.

And we're not talking sky falling...we be talkin' quality of life, Mista America.

[Ed W]

The river being the cleanest in your lifetime don't mean Jack....the rivers in Pittsburgh used to burn but I still wouldn't get in them....nor Grand Lake which has gotten much worse. Ozone standards have been eased the past 8 years so explain that and how the measurements help us get by on attainment. I drink bottled.... fluoride is a death wish. I live in the forest. Can't argue with the recycling program which I gave you credit but unfortunately your arrogance let it blow right through you.

And we're not talking sky falling...we be talkin' quality of life, Mista America.

Let's be clear - it was the Cuyahoga River near Cleveland Ohio that caught fire, not any of the rivers near Pittsburgh.  When I was a kid those rivers were heavily polluted.  In fact, Brush Creek near my home was so bad nothing lived in it, not even carp.  There were three big problems: untreated sewage from residences, industrial pollution, and acid mine drainage.  The commonwealth addressed all three issues in the late 60s and early 70s.  You can catch bass at the Point in Pittsburgh these days, and you can eat them too.  Streams that were once dead now hold thriving trout fisheries, and there's a trout stream in every county.

[Red Arrow]

Ozone standards have been eased the past 8 years so explain that and how the measurements help us get by on attainment.

You got the numbers handy?  I thought the standards were just maintained rather than making them tighter.

[Red Arrow]

Let's be clear - it was the Cuyahoga River near Cleveland Ohio that caught fire, not any of the rivers near Pittsburgh.  When I was a kid those rivers were heavily polluted.  In fact, Brush Creek near my home was so bad nothing lived in it, not even carp.  There were three big problems: untreated sewage from residences, industrial pollution, and acid mine drainage.  The commonwealth addressed all three issues in the late 60s and early 70s.  You can catch bass at the Point in Pittsburgh these days, and you can eat them too.  Streams that were once dead now hold thriving trout fisheries, and there's a trout stream in every county.

Downtown Pittsburgh is a lot cleaner too.  I visited my cousin at Pitt in 72.  Some of the buildings were still in the process of being cleaned up.  It was amazing how much crud was being removed.  Pittsburgh is a lot cleaner now but of course the steel mills are all in China.

[custosnox]

Yes. Everyone here will be happy to hear that TTC will be moving to a safer environment someday in the next 10 years.

I'm sure that you would find plenty of willing helpers here to help you pack, just to get you out of town sooner.  Heck, I'm sure you would even find someone to drive you to the city limits, or even the state line.

I drink bottled.... fluoride is a death wish.

Try reading the studies, not the half-a$$ed attempt at pretending to research, putting in your own information and sticking it on a website.  The ill-effects associated with fluoride (consuming large amounts of it) is more that it causes a lowering of IQ.  But then, I suppose in your case you don't really have enough of that to spare it it might be a death sentence for you.

[RecycleMichael]

You got the numbers handy?  I thought the standards were just maintained rather than making them tighter.

I do.

http://www.ozonealert.com/tulsaAreaOzoneTrend.htm

Someone post the graph for me.

[RecycleMichael]

And there is this on the river...

Arkansas River water quality improved, won't impede development


Tulsa World By JANET PEARSON Associate Editor
Published: 8/14/2011

It's as predictable as the summer heat. Whenever there's any news about Arkansas River development, the chorus of critics rises again. It's too polluted, the naysayers say. Nobody will be able to stand the odors from the refineries and sewage treatment plant, they insist. It's a braided prairie river and should be left that way, says another faction. But the truth is that someone thought of all those things long ago, and someone's been working on them ever since.

The latest news was the announcement about three proposals for developing some city-owned sites on the west bank that probably will be rejected because they weren't what city leaders, and probably most Tulsans, had in mind. Another recent announcement detailed the River Parks Authority's plans for modifying and repairing Zink Dam, a project that will make the lake deeper as well as safer and more suitable for recreational activities.

Right on cue, these stories elicited the predictable chants that the river is so yucky nobody would want to sit anywhere near it, much less stick a toe in it. Thanks to the intensive regulation of discharges from industries and municipalities into waterways, the Arkansas River is a lot cleaner these days than many people would believe. In fact, this past summer, it was cleaner than parts of some lakes. Remember the blue-green algae outbreaks?

Local officials had hoped there would be significant federal funding to advance Arkansas River development, but now it appears there will be little, if any, in the foreseeable future. That has local leaders scrambling for other funding sources for such elements as additional low-water dams, deemed by most development supporters to be necessary to make the river attractive for development.

For now, the aim is to ensure there is plenty of water in Zink Lake, an achievable improvement that will help maintain interest in developing the river.

Local officials had hoped there would be significant federal funding to advance Arkansas River development, but now it appears there will be little, if any, in the foreseeable future. That has local leaders scrambling for other funding sources for such elements as additional low-water dams, deemed by most development supporters to be necessary to make the river attractive for development.

For now, the aim is to ensure there is plenty of water in Zink Lake, an achievable improvement that will help maintain interest in developing the river.

Gaylon Pinc, environmental program manager for Program Management Group, the consultants guiding river development planning, said the loss of federal funds means some development plans likely will be delayed, but Zink Dam improvements "will ensure there's water in the river, and that's what most people want to see," he said.

But not everyone. "There is a very vocal group that loves the sandy, prairie river, which is its natural condition."

Or rather, was its natural condition.

"Since Keystone (Dam) was built, it has degraded to the point we really don't have that any more," Pinc added.

The regular releases from the dam for power generation and flood control have caused continual habitat and ecosystem changes over the decades, to the point that the Arkansas is no longer the meandering prairie river it once was. And it never will be again. "When hydropower generation starts again, you'll see those sands start washing down again," Pinc said.

What's been lost in the debate over low-water dams is their ability to help address that ecosystem damage. The northernmost dam at Sand Springs, as envisioned in the master plan, would create an impoundment that would "capture and release water to help stabilize flows all the way down the river system," explained Pinc. With an upstream dam helping to stabilize flows, there could be "significant habitat improvements" in addition to the benefit of smoothing out the flows.

So, just how safe is the water?

There's long been a belief that the Arkansas River is hopelessly polluted. There was a time when it was in bad shape, but that was a long time ago.

Now, thanks to many new regulations over the years, the river is deemed safe enough by the Oklahoma Water Resources Board for "secondary body contact." That includes such activities as boating, rafting and kayaking - water sports where there's little likelihood of ingesting much water.

The state's popular lakes, such as Keystone and Grand, are classified as safe for "primary body contact," which includes swimming.

But the differing classifications don't necessarily mean one body of water is a whole lot cleaner than the other. As Pinc pointed out, the Arkansas River is fed by Keystone Lake, so obviously the water quality in the two is similar.

"Those doom-and-gloom folk who think the river is still heavily polluted need to compare the water quality reports against other surface waters. The river has improved significantly," said Pinc. "That's not to say it's pure and problem-free. But look at other surface waters. All surface waters have issues."

As to the belief there's sewage flowing into the river - another misconception that just won't die: There is only one wastewater treatment facility above Zink Lake in Sand Springs. "And it is required to disinfect its (discharged) wastewater to the primary body contact standard." In other words, the discharged water is cleaner than the water already in the river. The same is true of the Tulsa wastewater plant near Interstate 44, where improvements also have been made to the plant's odor-control system.

"They have to meet the same standards as other plants and they meet them. Otherwise they get in trouble and get fined and have to spend lots of money on upgrades," said Pinc.

It's true storm drains at times wash animal waste, fertilizers and other naturally occurring pollutants such as decaying vegetation into the river. It's a fact of life in a big city. There also are dangers from decades-old debris such as chunks of concrete in the riverbed. For these reasons it's unlikely the Arkansas ever will be developed for swimming purposes.

"But kayakers and rowing clubs have been using the river for years, and water quality hasn't been an issue," said Pinc. "Their concern is about water depth."

The refineries are another bugaboo with the anti-development crowd, who apparently aren't aware or don't believe there have been significant, ongoing environmental improvements to both plant emissions and industrial wastewater treatment for years now, because of the enactment of more stringent federal standards.

As Pinc noted: "Refinery operations are heavily regulated. Industries and municipal discharges are so heavily regulated it does not pay to violate the standards because the fines are really stiff ...They have to test frequently and submit data to federal and state regulators who have a keen eye on those who don't meet their permit requirements."

Pinc said more environmental studies are under way on the river and more will be conducted in the future. But he added he believes it's "highly unlikely there's a significant problem" with the water, because if there were, we'd know it by now.

The continuing interest in the river no doubt ensures the river's future is safe and even improving. "We turned our backs on the river in the '50s and '60s and '70s ," said Pinc. "We didn't have respect for it. But now we see an opportunity to undertake significant improvements to an area that is well-loved."

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=211&articleid=20110814_211_G1_CUTLIN797618

[Red Arrow]

I do.

http://www.ozonealert.com/tulsaAreaOzoneTrend.htm

Someone post the graph for me.

We may have exceeded the standard in 2011 but it doesn't look like the standard was relaxed.  

[RecycleMichael]

Everything is on hold. It takes a year and a half to be designated anyway and the standard got all political this election year. We have a good summer and we get to use better numbers in our three year average.

But we shouldn't only care about air quality because of some regulatory number made up in Washington D.C. We should care because we, and our parents, and our kids breath OUR air. One out of five people have some breathing problem and high ozone days really affect their quality of life.

[Red Arrow]

Back to the river.

I went sailing on the Charles River by Boston in the early 80s with my cousin.  She said to try really hard to not fall in the water as I would get a mandatory trip to the hospital if I did.  Is the Arkansas anywhere near that bad?

[Red Arrow]

But we shouldn't only care about air quality because of some regulatory number made up in Washington D.C. We should care because we, and our parents, and our kids breath OUR air. One out of five people have some breathing problem and high ozone days really affect their quality of life.

How clean we want our air is a matter of time, money and how much pollution we can send to China.  What I was addressing is whether or not the standards had actually been relaxed to earlier standards or just not tightened as scheduled.

[custosnox]

I do.

http://www.ozonealert.com/tulsaAreaOzoneTrend.htm

Someone post the graph for me.

[RecycleMichael]

Everything the state knows about Oklahoma water and how it is monitored can be found in this handy 84 page document.

http://www.deq.state.ok.us/wqdnew/305b_303d/2010/2010%20Oklahoma%20Integrated%20Report.pdf

[Red Arrow]

Everything the state knows about Oklahoma water and how it is monitored can be found in this handy 84 page document.

http://www.deq.state.ok.us/wqdnew/305b_303d/2010/2010%20Oklahoma%20Integrated%20Report.pdf

Handy and 84 page are not terms I would normally associate with each other.

[Red Arrow]

Everything is on hold. It takes a year and a half to be designated anyway and the standard got all political this election year. We have a good summer and we get to use better numbers in our three year average.

But we shouldn't only care about air quality because of some regulatory number made up in Washington D.C. We should care because we, and our parents, and our kids breath OUR air. One out of five people have some breathing problem and high ozone days really affect their quality of life.

We need to start cutting down Oak Trees:


Trees May Contribute To Ozone Problem
by Kate Melville

Trees may not actually commit suicide, but certain species do produce pollutants that hamper their own growth while contributing to global climate changes and causing harm to other life forms, contend two Texas A&M University researchers. Renyi Zhang, an atmospheric chemist, is studying one such substance, isoprene, given off by oak trees and leading to increased ozone in our atmosphere. Working under a $300,000 grant from the National Science Foundation, Zhang and chemistry professor Simon North have taken on the challenge of unraveling the more than 1,000 reactions that transform organically released isoprene into toxic atmospheric pollutants.

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20020526235808data_trunc_sys.shtml