BOK Center 2012

[Oil Capital]

I found some more information on operating profits of arenas.  This is a little old, but still interesting.  From a 1992 study http://books.google.com/books?id=52HGfXAUdOAC&pg=PA168&lpg=PA168&dq=operating+profit+of+publicly+owned+arenas&source=bl&ots=URWxT7btwS&sig=-LBZ7yH1Iz7Ue4fPbCALLOM-PAE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=74LGT8XMK-XL2QXUsaDYAQ&ved=0CFAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=operating%20profit%20of%20publicly%20owned%20arenas&f=false:

Net Operating Income:

LA Sports Arena:         $934,000
Meadowlands Arena:  $2,541,000
Orlando Arena:          $  128,000
Charlotte Coliseum:   $3,362,000
McNichols Arena:      - $ 799,000
Miami Arena:           -  $  11,000
Omni:                       $1,130,000
Salt Palace:              - $ 639,000

Only 3 out of the 8 arenas in the study had losses.

[Teatownclown]

I found some more information on operating profits of arenas.  This is a little old, but still interesting.  From a 1992 study http://books.google.com/books?id=52HGfXAUdOAC&pg=PA168&lpg=PA168&dq=operating+profit+of+publicly+owned+arenas&source=bl&ots=URWxT7btwS&sig=-LBZ7yH1Iz7Ue4fPbCALLOM-PAE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=74LGT8XMK-XL2QXUsaDYAQ&ved=0CFAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=operating%20profit%20of%20publicly%20owned%20arenas&f=false:

Net Operating Income:

LA Sports Arena:         $934,000
Meadowlands Arena:  $2,541,000
Orlando Arena:          $  128,000
Charlotte Coliseum:   $3,362,000
McNichols Arena:      - $ 799,000
Miami Arena:           -  $  11,000
Omni:                       $1,130,000
Salt Palace:              - $ 639,000

Only 3 out of the 8 arenas in the study had losses.

Great...means nothing today....sorry....fail.

[Oil Capital]

Great...means nothing today....sorry....fail.

I look forward to your contributions as well.  I am posting what I can find.  So far, I can find zero support for Hoss's statement that most publicly-funded arenas operate at break-even or a loss.

[Hoss]

I look forward to your contributions as well.  I am posting what I can find.  So far, I can find zero support for Hoss's statement that most publicly-funded arenas operate at break-even or a loss.

The discussion was made DURING the initial stages of the campaign for the tax to pay for it.  People were complaining about it; the World did a piece on it I believe.  That's what stuck in my memory about it.

Me?  I'm not going to call every arena in the country to find out if it's true.  It may not be standard now, but back then, there sure were a lot of people saying it was.  Especially in the NO camp.

But here is someone else in the business, back in 2006, who said this:

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2006-12-10/news/0612090346_1_au-rene-theater-cultural-arts-center-broward-center

"People don't understand that 90 percent of these buildings, whether they are theaters or arenas, operate at a loss,"

Also, it notes the same in someone's Senior Theses I found online:

http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1265&context=cmc_theses

Obviously, take the last with a grain of salt, but it is a Senior Theses, so hopefully it was sourced.

[Oil Capital]

The discussion was made DURING the initial stages of the campaign for the tax to pay for it.  People were complaining about it; the World did a piece on it I believe.  That's what stuck in my memory about it.

Me?  I'm not going to call every arena in the country to find out if it's true.  It may not be standard now, but back then, there sure were a lot of people saying it was.  Especially in the NO camp.

But here is someone else in the business, back in 2006, who said this:

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2006-12-10/news/0612090346_1_au-rene-theater-cultural-arts-center-broward-center

"People don't understand that 90 percent of these buildings, whether they are theaters or arenas, operate at a loss,"

Also, it notes the same in someone's Senior Theses I found online:

http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1265&context=cmc_theses

Obviously, take the last with a grain of salt, but it is a Senior Theses, so hopefully it was sourced.

So, if I may summarize, you actually have zero direct evidence in support of your statement.  The statements made by both the BOK opponents and the gentleman quoted in the Sun-Sentinel article were almost certainly referring to overall costs.  Even you are not pretending that the BOK Center is "profitable" on an overall basis (i.e., including construction costs, interest and amortization, are you?  (It's amusing that to support your statements now, you are willing to take at face value and repeat as true what arena opponents said in 2003...)

Likewise the Senior Thesis tells us nothing about any individual arenas that I can see in a quick review and is talking about the total costs of arena funding, including both operations and construction.

The only actual research we have on the thread regarding arena operating profits is what I have posted.  EVERY arena for which I have been able to find current information is showing an operating profit.  (Add to the list the KFC YUM Arena in Louisville).   In the 1992 study, 8 out of 11 arenas showed operating profits.  In short, Bravo for the BOK showing an operating profit, but it is really no great accomplishment.

[DTowner]

Not sure who you are referring to.  I certainly am not arguing over whether the BOK is profitable and I don't see anyone else doing so either.  The BOK is certainly operationally profitable. There is no question about that.  

What is silly is the fear of examining how the BOK compares to other arenas displayed by so many on this board.  I supported the construction of the arena and continue to support it and believe it is a great benefit to the city of  Tulsa (even though I think they failed in the site choice).  But some of the claims made on its behalf go a bit far and it does no one any harm to have a realistic discussion of its performance and an honest comparison to other arenas.  

I did not compare the BOK to any other arena.  Every three months the Tulsa World reports that the BOK Center announced it made a "profit" for the quarter, its gets posted on here and someone immediately turns the discussion to how the "profit" is not really a "profit" because the costs to build it, etc. must be considered to analyze the real return on investment, etc.

In this case, by the second comment this appeared:  "I'm good with only an operating profit, but how would its finances look if depreciation on the building was taken into account?"  This is a public facility, how does depreciating the cost of the arena relate to whether its revenues exceed its opeating costs and the tax payers are not being asked to subsidize its ongoing operations?  That is the point that keeps getting made and someone always wants to change the topic.

[DTowner]

So, if I may summarize, you actually have zero direct evidence in support of your statement.  The statements made by both the BOK opponents and the gentleman quoted in the Sun-Sentinel article were almost certainly referring to overall costs.  Even you are not pretending that the BOK Center is "profitable" on an overall basis (i.e., including construction costs, interest and amortization, are you?  (It's amusing that to support your statements now, you are willing to take at face value and repeat as true what arena opponents said in 2003...)

Likewise the Senior Thesis tells us nothing about any individual arenas that I can see in a quick review and is talking about the total costs of arena funding, including both operations and construction.

The only actual research we have on the thread regarding arena operating profits is what I have posted.  EVERY arena for which I have been able to find current information is showing an operating profit.  (Add to the list the KFC YUM Arena in Louisville).   In the 1992 study, 8 out of 11 arenas showed operating profits.  In short, Bravo for the BOK showing an operating profit, but it is really no great accomplishment.

This wasn't my point, but this article plainly implies the BOK Center's finanical performance has exceeded that of many arenas around the country, but no it does not provide any examples.



Tulsa's BOK Center maintains a profit despite slowdown

BY BRIAN BARBER World Staff Writer
Tuesday, January 31, 2012
1/31/2012 6:27:06 AM


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read more BOK Center coverage and concert reviews.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The BOK Center has generated a $366,769 operating profit during the first half of the fiscal year through December, a figure that is projected to grow to $742,980 by the end of the fiscal year June 30.

Management is thrilled with the arena's financial performance so far in its fourth year of operation, because only a $205,878 profit is budgeted. But the figures are far below the $1.1 million realized in its first year and $1.6 million in years two and three.

The profit decline is a combination of two things, said General Manager John Bolton.

First, the concert industry has been sluggish because of the country's economy, he said. Artists are either staying off the road or, when they do tour, they stick to the major metropolitan areas.

The BOK Center suffered a blow to its March schedule when the Red Hot Chili Peppers was moved to October, Bolton said. There also are no college basketball tournaments this year, as there have been in years past.

"The shows that we have do very well," he said. "If you look at the concert lists of other arenas in similar or even larger markets, you'll see that we're snagging most of those, too.

"But there's still some overall hesitation in the industry. We're slowly starting to see it bounce back. Rock acts tend to only go out in the best of times, and we're getting more of that."

Second, each venue traditionally has a honeymoon period with elevated profit levels, and the BOK Center's has been longer than most, Bolton said.

Most arenas in the United States envy the profit margins seen in Tulsa, he said.

"It's frankly a very strong number," said BOK Center Finance Director Tom Simpson. "Really, anything on the positive side is a good number for an arena."

The BOK Center still routinely collects honors and top rankings based on its ticket sales, customer service and operation, Bolton said.

Just last weekend, the arena was nominated for the third consecutive time as the arena of the year by Pollstar, the industry's publication.

"We value each and every award and nomination we get because it means ticket buyers and our industry customers are having good experiences in Tulsa and will come back," Bolton said.

The $366,769 profit generated from July 1 to Dec. 31 is based on the center's $2,886,214 in expenses being offset by $3,252,983 in revenue, financial reports show.

All of the venue's profit at the end of the fiscal year will be placed into a reserve fund to help pay for any major maintenance needs. The fund has a balance of about $3 million.

The arena also has turned over a total of $835,520 in sales-tax revenue during the first half of the fiscal year to the city, county and state based on their shares of the 8.157-cent sales tax rate.

The sales taxes came from the facility netting $9,937,153 in sales of tickets, T-shirts, concessions and other items.

The BOK Center, which held its first ticketed event in September 2008, was funded with $178 million from the Tulsa County Vision 2025 initiative and about $12 million from sponsorships.

[nathanm]

the BOK Center's finanical performance has exceeded that of many arenas around the country

That's fantastic. What are we actually paying, then? $10 million a year? $20 million? $5 million? I'm not quite sure why the question is so distressing to you.

[Hoss]

This wasn't my point, but this article plainly implies the BOK Center's finanical performance has exceeded that of many arenas around the country, but no it does not provide any examples.



Tulsa's BOK Center maintains a profit despite slowdown

BY BRIAN BARBER World Staff Writer
Tuesday, January 31, 2012
1/31/2012 6:27:06 AM


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read more BOK Center coverage and concert reviews.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The BOK Center has generated a $366,769 operating profit during the first half of the fiscal year through December, a figure that is projected to grow to $742,980 by the end of the fiscal year June 30.

Management is thrilled with the arena's financial performance so far in its fourth year of operation, because only a $205,878 profit is budgeted. But the figures are far below the $1.1 million realized in its first year and $1.6 million in years two and three.

The profit decline is a combination of two things, said General Manager John Bolton.

First, the concert industry has been sluggish because of the country's economy, he said. Artists are either staying off the road or, when they do tour, they stick to the major metropolitan areas.

The BOK Center suffered a blow to its March schedule when the Red Hot Chili Peppers was moved to October, Bolton said. There also are no college basketball tournaments this year, as there have been in years past.

"The shows that we have do very well," he said. "If you look at the concert lists of other arenas in similar or even larger markets, you'll see that we're snagging most of those, too.

"But there's still some overall hesitation in the industry. We're slowly starting to see it bounce back. Rock acts tend to only go out in the best of times, and we're getting more of that."

Second, each venue traditionally has a honeymoon period with elevated profit levels, and the BOK Center's has been longer than most, Bolton said.

Most arenas in the United States envy the profit margins seen in Tulsa, he said.

"It's frankly a very strong number," said BOK Center Finance Director Tom Simpson. "Really, anything on the positive side is a good number for an arena."

The BOK Center still routinely collects honors and top rankings based on its ticket sales, customer service and operation, Bolton said.

Just last weekend, the arena was nominated for the third consecutive time as the arena of the year by Pollstar, the industry's publication.

"We value each and every award and nomination we get because it means ticket buyers and our industry customers are having good experiences in Tulsa and will come back," Bolton said.

The $366,769 profit generated from July 1 to Dec. 31 is based on the center's $2,886,214 in expenses being offset by $3,252,983 in revenue, financial reports show.

All of the venue's profit at the end of the fiscal year will be placed into a reserve fund to help pay for any major maintenance needs. The fund has a balance of about $3 million.

The arena also has turned over a total of $835,520 in sales-tax revenue during the first half of the fiscal year to the city, county and state based on their shares of the 8.157-cent sales tax rate.

The sales taxes came from the facility netting $9,937,153 in sales of tickets, T-shirts, concessions and other items.

The BOK Center, which held its first ticketed event in September 2008, was funded with $178 million from the Tulsa County Vision 2025 initiative and about $12 million from sponsorships.

So if John Bolton (manager at the arena) says that anything in the black is a good thing for arena, I will defer to his knowledge of the industry and say that it's not the norm for arenas to operate in the black.

There you have it.

[heironymouspasparagus]

So, since we are talking about an entertainment venue....


Doc Watson died yesterday.  Got to listen to a little of his music again this morning on NPR.  I had forgotten...will revisit!!

[heironymouspasparagus]

Even if one is not religious, this remains one of the most beautiful songs ever written.  I have never heard a bad version of it, and the only complaint is that ya don't get to hear some of Doc's geetar or banjo with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUDwAgApoQw&feature=related

But you do here - and no, Doc didn't write it, but neither did Eric Burden (The Animals);
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeiXnyvo0d4&feature=related


This whole thing has shown just how wonderful the internet is!!!  Wandering down the paths of Texas Alexander and Leadbelly!  What a wonderful world we live in today!!!  All these old histories right at my fingertips.  Or the mouse tips....

[Oil Capital]

This wasn't my point, but this article plainly implies the BOK Center's finanical performance has exceeded that of many arenas around the country, but no it does not provide any examples.

That article of course gives us zero information about the operating results of any other arenas.  It is nothing but unsupported management puffery.

[Oil Capital]

So if John Bolton (manager at the arena) says that anything in the black is a good thing for arena, I will defer to his knowledge of the industry and say that it's not the norm for arenas to operate in the black.

There you have it.

LOL. Do we really need John Bolton to tell us that operating in the black is a good thing?  And of curse he did not say that it is not the norm for arenas to operate in the black.

The BOK is successful.  It's obviously a good thing that it shows an operating profit.  Credibility is lost when more is attempted to be claimed than is realistic.  And so far we have seen zero evidence to support the claim that most arenas do not have operating profits.

[Townsend]

LOL. Do we really need John Bolton to tell us that operating in the black is a good thing? 

Eh, what makes you think we need you to tell us your opinion?

[Oil Capital]

Eh, what makes you think we need you to tell us your opinion?

That's a rather odd comment on a public forum that is all about sharing fact and opinion.  (and for what it's worth the vast majority of my posts are facts, not opinions.)