TULSA'S WATER GOES DOWN THE DRAIN!

[nathanm]

Bring some back from the islands?

Only a couple of liters. 

[Red Arrow]

Only a couple of liters. 

I found some rum on Maui that I really like.  The Maui Gold is my favorite.  I've tried the dark and liked it but am more conditioned to expect the taste of the Gold.

http://www.haleakaladistillers.com/5052.html

[nathanm]

The Brugal anejo is pretty much the same color as the Maui gold, and it's good stuff. I suspect they're fairly similar. The extra viejo is dark, delicious, and very smooth, but you might not like it if you don't like aged rum. I actually happened upon their factory by accident while riding around Puerto Plata on a motor scooter last time I was there. It was large and ugly. Not much else to say about it.

Supposedly you can get extra viejo in Miami now, but I have yet to see it. I do have much of the half gallon of the anejo I brought back from Miami last year. Apparently I need to enlist some help drinking up the rum.

[dbacks fan]

Nerd alert!
Even higher frequencies will bounce off the troposphere or ionosphere under the right conditions.  I've used a 25 watt 10 meter transceiver to talk to both coasts from my driveway when conditions were right, but when the band shut down, I couldn't reach Collinsville.

VHF and UHF will experience a phenomena called ducting, usually in the summer time.  A signal can bounce back and forth in the duct, emerging somewhere far away.  I was listening to a net in Detroit one night when I was in Pennsylvania, with a signal so strong it almost seemed they were nearby.  And a friend experienced it with his television attached to a big Yagi antenna when he picked up Canadian porn on a broadcast channel one night.

Tropospheric radios have been used for decades, and now can transmit data at 4Mbps to 16Mbps.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Troposcatter-Systems.html

[patric]

Byproduct of water disinfection process found to be highly toxic
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/13413.php


A recently discovered disinfection byproduct (DBP) found in U.S. drinking water treated with chloramines is the most toxic ever found, says a scientist at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign who tested samples on mammalian cells.

The discovery raises health-related questions regarding an Environmental Protection Agency plan to encourage all U.S. water-treatment facilities to adopt chlorine alternatives, said Michael J. Plewa [PLEV-uh], a genetic toxicologist in the department of crop sciences. "This research says that when you go to alternatives, you may be opening a Pandora's box of new DBPs, and these unregulated DBPs may be much more toxic, by orders of magnitude, than the regulated ones we are trying to avoid."

[Teatownclown]

Byproduct of water disinfection process found to be highly toxic
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/13413.php


A recently discovered disinfection byproduct (DBP) found in U.S. drinking water treated with chloramines is the most toxic ever found, says a scientist at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign who tested samples on mammalian cells.

The discovery raises health-related questions regarding an Environmental Protection Agency plan to encourage all U.S. water-treatment facilities to adopt chlorine alternatives, said Michael J. Plewa [PLEV-uh], a genetic toxicologist in the department of crop sciences. "This research says that when you go to alternatives, you may be opening a Pandora's box of new DBPs, and these unregulated DBPs may be much more toxic, by orders of magnitude, than the regulated ones we are trying to avoid."

Great catch here! Thanks!

Send it over to our Chamber maids....and to Mayor Screwy and Mansur the chimp engineer councilor.

[RecycleMichael]

Some good background information from Water and Wastes Digest magazine (I have such a great list of reading material). This article focused on private water supplies, but I thought the information was useful for this discussion.

I too, have qualms about Chloramine. But I refuse to become alarmist when it has been successfully used in so many cities for so long. The environmentalists in Boston, Portland and California cities have debated the use of Chlorine and Chlorimine for many years and there are lots of studies. I am not opposed to Tulsa switching from Chlorine to Chloramine.

Chlorine Treatment

The addition of chlorine to a water supply readily combines with chemicals dissolved in water, microorganisms, plant material, odors and colors. Chlorine that is "used up" by these components comprises the chlorine demand of a treatment system. Sufficient amounts of chlorine must
be added to a water supply to meet the chlorine demand and provide residual disinfection. Free or residual chlorine is the amount  of the disinfectant that does not combine with components in the water, and the breakpoint is the point in which free chlorine is available for continuous disinfection.

Disinfection By-Products

In 1979, the EPA adopted a trihalomethane (THM) regulation limiting the allowable level of this carcinogenic disinfection byproduct in drinking water. The maximum contaminant level for total THMs in drinking water is 0.10mg/L. THMs are chemicals that are formed, primarily in surface water, when naturally occurring organic materials combine with free chlorine.

Alternatives

Despite the popularity of chlorination, the treatment method has limitations when attempting to disinfect water sources that are heavily contaminated and possess protozoan parasites such as Cryptosporidium parvum and Giardia lamblia. Ultraviolet (UV) disinfection and reverse osmosis (RO)
filtration both have proved effective at inactivating specific protozoan. Both methodologies purify water without the addition of harsh chemicals or the need to handle hazardous materials.

UV Disinfection

UV disinfection is the process where microorganisms are exposed to UV light at a specified intensity for a specific period of time. This process renders the microorganism to be considered "microbiologically dead." UV light penetrates the cell wall of the microorganism affecting the DNA by fusing the Thyamine bond within the DNA strand, which prevents the DNA strand from replicating during the reproduction process. This fusing of the Thyamine bond is known as forming a dimerase of the Thyamine bond. If the microorganism is unable to reproduce/replicate then it is considered to be "microbiologically dead." While providing a 99.99 percent inactivation of bacterium and viruses, UV will have no effect on water chemistry.

Reverse Osmosis

RO filtration uses a semipermeable  membrane that enables the water  being purified to pass through while contaminants remain behind. Traditionally, osmosis refers to the attempt to reach equilibrium by dissimilar liquid systems trying to reach the same concentration of materials on both sides of a semipermeable membrane. Reversing the osmotic process is accomplished by applying pressure to stop the natural osmosis process, creating RO. RO removes virtually all organic compounds and 90 to 99 percent of all ions from the processed water. In addition, RO can reject 99.9 percent of viruses, bacteria and pyrogens.

Alternative methods of treatment for water supplies such as UV and RO do not provide a residual effect like chlorination. Without a residual, the regrowth of contaminants further down in the distribution system becomes possible. Chlorination generally is an inexpensive treatment method and proven to be effective against a broad spectrum of pathogens. Although it has shown itself  to be effective against waterborne bacteria and viruses, it provides only some degree of protection against protozoan agents. Nevertheless, a water supply should utilize a treatment system that kills or neutralizes all pathogens in the water through an automatic, simply maintained and safe process. 

[Teatownclown]

Some good background information from Water and Wastes Digest magazine (I have such a great list of reading material). This article focused on private water supplies, but I thought the information was useful for this discussion.

I too, have qualms about Chloramine. But I refuse to become alarmist when I must kiss up to the city and their beauracrats to maintain my "IN" with them.it has been successfully used in so many cities for so long. The environmentalists in Boston, Portland and California cities have debated the use of Chlorine and Chlorimine for many years and there are lots of studies. I am not opposed to Tulsa switching from Chlorine to Chloramine.[/b]

Chlorine Treatment

The addition of chlorine to a water supply readily combines with chemicals dissolved in water, microorganisms, plant material, odors and colors. Chlorine that is "used up" by these components comprises the chlorine demand of a treatment system. Sufficient amounts of chlorine must
be added to a water supply to meet the chlorine demand and provide residual disinfection. Free or residual chlorine is the amount  of the disinfectant that does not combine with components in the water, and the breakpoint is the point in which free chlorine is available for continuous disinfection.

Disinfection By-Products

In 1979, the EPA adopted a trihalomethane (THM) regulation limiting the allowable level of this carcinogenic disinfection byproduct in drinking water. The maximum contaminant level for total THMs in drinking water is 0.10mg/L. THMs are chemicals that are formed, primarily in surface water, when naturally occurring organic materials combine with free chlorine.

Alternatives

Despite the popularity of chlorination, the treatment method has limitations when attempting to disinfect water sources that are heavily contaminated and possess protozoan parasites such as Cryptosporidium parvum and Giardia lamblia. Ultraviolet (UV) disinfection and reverse osmosis (RO)
filtration both have proved effective at inactivating specific protozoan. Both methodologies purify water without the addition of harsh chemicals or the need to handle hazardous materials.

UV Disinfection

UV disinfection is the process where microorganisms are exposed to UV light at a specified intensity for a specific period of time. This process renders the microorganism to be considered "microbiologically dead." UV light penetrates the cell wall of the microorganism affecting the DNA by fusing the Thyamine bond within the DNA strand, which prevents the DNA strand from replicating during the reproduction process. This fusing of the Thyamine bond is known as forming a dimerase of the Thyamine bond. If the microorganism is unable to reproduce/replicate then it is considered to be "microbiologically dead." While providing a 99.99 percent inactivation of bacterium and viruses, UV will have no effect on water chemistry.

Reverse Osmosis

RO filtration uses a semipermeable  membrane that enables the water  being purified to pass through while contaminants remain behind. Traditionally, osmosis refers to the attempt to reach equilibrium by dissimilar liquid systems trying to reach the same concentration of materials on both sides of a semipermeable membrane. Reversing the osmotic process is accomplished by applying pressure to stop the natural osmosis process, creating RO. RO removes virtually all organic compounds and 90 to 99 percent of all ions from the processed water. In addition, RO can reject 99.9 percent of viruses, bacteria and pyrogens.

Alternative methods of treatment for water supplies such as UV and RO do not provide a residual effect like chlorination. Without a residual, the regrowth of contaminants further down in the distribution system becomes possible. Chlorination generally is an inexpensive treatment method and proven to be effective against a broad spectrum of pathogens. Although it has shown itself  to be effective against waterborne bacteria and viruses, it provides only some degree of protection against protozoan agents. Nevertheless, a water supply should utilize a treatment system that kills or neutralizes all pathogens in the water through an automatic, simply maintained and safe process.  [/i]

Sorry, but people who say the things you do lose credibility. Tulsan's should be less concerned about waste management and more concerned about the air they breathe and the water they need to survive. What happened to our water to change the mix? I know what's up with our carcinogenic air.

Question authority especially when they work from the inside out.

[RecycleMichael]

I am glad to know you are such an expert on credibility.

No one from the city water department has asked me to respond or educate anybody. I am just good at doing research, attending public meetings, and sharing what I think. Water is not my field of expertise.

I am not a Water Boy, I am a Trash MAN.

[Teatownclown]

I am glad to know you are such an expert on credibility.

No one from the city water department has asked me to respond or educate anybody. I am just good at doing research, attending public meetings, and sharing what I think. Water is not my field of expertise.

I am not a Water Boy, I am a Trash MAN.

Reassuring one's self with capitalization?

Maybe you need to rethink your priorities.

You're good at staying within the status quo.

The waste aspect of the environment became priority because those that run corporations could hop on board. They can't do that with the water and air they pollute. You can see waste....they can't see their poison but they know it's there. Indeed, handling waste is cost effective and makes for a "good corporate citizen". Cleaning the atmosphere and stopping their discharge would put them out of business.

I preferred Tulsa when we were not driven by expanding our economic base (CHAMBER) and we were a clean efficient community. I remember when we were once considered "AMERICA's MOST BEAUTIFUL" .... that'll never be the case again.

[patric]

Chloramine is a less effective disinfectant than chlorine. The World Health Organization (WHO, PDF 145 KB) http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/S04.pdf   says that "monochloramine is about 2,000 and 100,000 times less effective than free chlorine for the inactivation of E. Coli and rotaviruses, respectively."
http://www.chloramine.org/chloraminefacts.htm

Also,
Chloramine cannot be removed by boiling, distilling, or by standing uncovered.
Some disinfection byproducts of chloramine are even more toxic than those of chlorine, i.e. iodoacids.
Chloramine vapors and its disinfection byproducts can accumulate in indoor air and concentrate in an enclosed area such as a shower stall, small bathroom, kitchen, or apartment

[RecycleMichael]

I preferred Tulsa when we were not driven by expanding our economic base ...

We don't have that luxury. Jobs are important and I have been able to both help protect our environment and create jobs. I have also planned and led education and awareness campaigns and seminars on waste, water and air issues. I have written and produced the ozone alert campaign, emceed the Resource Management conference and conducted the household hazardous waste collections for two decades.

Before you diss me, tell us one thing you have done to help the environment in Tulsa.

[Red Arrow]

Tulsan's should be less concerned about waste management and more concerned about the air they breathe and the water they need to survive.

How big is your back yard?

[Teatownclown]

Sparrow, if my backyard were the size of Vegas, trash could be buried there from the entire nation and in 100 years the nation might need a new location and just maybe a deeper hole.

@RM : I can't take away your outstanding efforts and success. Believe me when I say what I have in the past about your tenacious leadership and authenticity. There's no doubt about your genuine devotion to this cause.

But, I often wonder what battles you choose to fight and which one's you bail on and why. As you age, please remember to be more flexible and to conjure up imagination. It's tough when you live in a naturally harsh environment.

Let's see .... what has FOTD helped on the environmental front? Just stuff from way back during the Black Fox and Rain Forest Action Network daze.. counseling for a healthy clean zen like existence? Unfortunately, some of us do a small part on a micro scale and lack any desire to fully immerse one's self into helping because of the politics and the impenetrable imperial walls.

Back to the water issue. It's bad. Sorry. I know of way too many incidents of cancers between OKC and Norman. While there may be no direct correlation, I think it's not good at all. I was already anti fluoride as you know. And now we're forced to drink the water because no bio engineer has come up with the solution. Where's science when you need it most? FDA? DOA?

[Red Arrow]

Sparrow, if my backyard were the size of Vegas, trash could be buried there from the entire nation and in 100 years the nation might need a new location and just maybe a deeper hole.

Teacup, I think you underestimate the amount of trash this country generates.  Plus, I doubt your backyard is the size of Vegas (assuming you are referring to the city Las Vegas, NV) but we only want to put Tulsa metro area trash there, not the whole country's.