TULSA'S WATER GOES DOWN THE DRAIN!

[heironymouspasparagus]

For solid clean water...I'll pay whatever it takes....

Ozarka bottled water....

[Teatownclown]

Ozarka bottled water....

You have good taste in water.....

Unfortunately, it's only good for sponge baths.

[Red Arrow]

I'll pay whatever it takes....

Most people who say that don't really mean it.

At a former job (here in Tulsa), the production line was shut down for some small parts in California.  The Production Manager said do "whatever it takes" to get the line running again today.  I made a few phone calls and found a private jet service that would fly it here in a few hours for $8000.  This was in the mid 80s.  The Production Manager revised his thoughts and decided "tomorrow"/ overnight FedEX was good enough. 

True story, not made up.  I like to tell it to people who say "whatever it takes/costs".

[heironymouspasparagus]

You have good taste in water.....

Unfortunately, it's only good for sponge baths.

Ok, so what you are literally saying by your previous comment is that if water tracked the price of gasoline 1:1, that would be fine with you.  Now about what, $3.60 a gallon-ish?  I will get the equipment, come to your house and set it up to give you wonderful water if you will pay me the $3.60 a gallon.  When do we start?

But if you were really all as concerned as you say,...you would already have this equipment plumbed into your house to take the cheap, cheap tap water and "fix" it for your use.  Why haven't you??


I have thought about the topic of chlorine/chloramine removal quite a bit.  One little thing that I do for drinking water is to fill a couple of large pitchers, keep them in the fridge, use from only one at a time and refill as it empties while moving to the other one.  What this does is gives a "settling" time so that the dissolved chlorine can escape.  Works about as near perfectly as possible - open to the air in a residential environment, even in a fridge (or leave it out on the counter - won't hurt a thing) there will be NO chlorination compounds remaining after just a very few hours.  In NO case over 24.  (And yeah, I have tested this in a lab - extensively - when I was designing a chlorine measurement instrument in the deep dark past.)

[Teatownclown]

Here is a great article, and a must read, from The Environmental Working Group.
"...switching to chloramines has not solved the problem but rather moved the problem – and may have complicated it. Chloramines are toxic to kidney dialysis patients and extremely toxic to fish (EPA 2012b). A nationwide study on water treatment contaminants conducted by the EPA reported that chloraminated drinking water had the highest levels of an unregulated chemical family known as iodoacids (EPA 2002). Some researchers consider iodoacids to be potentially the most toxic group of water treatment contaminants found to date, but there is still relatively little research on them (Barlow 2004, Plewa 2004)."

http://www.ewg.org/research/water-treatment-contaminants




drink up

[Conan71]

Unfortunately for large municipal water supplies the choice seems to be e-coli, cholera, and dysentery or some potential carcinogens in the water supply.  I would suspect the greater good is using proven and economical sterilization methods.

I'm every bit the additive phobe that you are.  Until the EPA will mandate something different, this is what we get.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Here is a great article, and a must read, from The Environmental Working Group.
"...switching to chloramines has not solved the problem but rather moved the problem – and may have complicated it. Chloramines are toxic to kidney dialysis patients and extremely toxic to fish (EPA 2012b). A nationwide study on water treatment contaminants conducted by the EPA reported that chloraminated drinking water had the highest levels of an unregulated chemical family known as iodoacids (EPA 2002). Some researchers consider iodoacids to be potentially the most toxic group of water treatment contaminants found to date, but there is still relatively little research on them (Barlow 2004, Plewa 2004)."

drink up

Chloramines are a different thing.  Much more persistent in water, which is exactly why the compelling desire for use - less worry about not having an adequate amount of chemical to prevent bigger health problems.  Personally, I would rather they stay with gas chlorine - even if it does cost a little bit more - it is SO universally proven and effective and inexpensive....I say raise the water rates a dollar a month.

So, have you actually done anything for your water...the stuff coming into your house for your use?  I really want to know...  It really is pretty straightforward to treat it coming in the house to completely eliminate chloramines (and chlorine, too).  Have you done that yet?

Still didn't answer the question of what you would do?  (I gave you my recommendation to stay with gas chlorine.)

[Teatownclown]

I try to limit my exposure to poisons even if it means limiting my time around refineries or eating little if any bad foods or taking fewer showers.

Most the city water goes on my yard...and it's showing the curse of chloramines. Or is it the drought?

[Conan71]

I try to limit my exposure to poisons even if it means limiting my time around refineries or eating little if any bad foods or taking fewer showers.

Most the city water goes on my yard...and it's showing the curse of chloramines. Or is it the drought?

Explaining away hygiene issues?

You'd never have survived at my office, I work 1/4 mile from Sinclair Refinery.  Fortunately, Tulsa is usually a windy place and disperses fumes of all sorts rather quickly.

[patric]

One little thing that I do for drinking water is to fill a couple of large pitchers, keep them in the fridge, use from only one at a time and refill as it empties while moving to the other one.  What this does is gives a "settling" time so that the dissolved chlorine can escape.  Works about as near perfectly as possible - open to the air in a residential environment, even in a fridge (or leave it out on the counter - won't hurt a thing) there will be NO chlorination compounds remaining after just a very few hours.  In NO case over 24.  (And yeah, I have tested this in a lab - extensively - when I was designing a chlorine measurement instrument in the deep dark past.)

That will work for Chlorine, but not Chloramine.

Every winter we place warm-mist vaporizers in living areas to increase comfort (and not have to turn the heat up so much).
While the steam that comes out is sterile, I have to wonder what affect aerosol chloramine might be having.

[Teatownclown]

Explaining away hygiene issues?

You'd never have survived at my office, I work 1/4 mile from Sinclair Refinery.  Fortunately, Tulsa is usually a windy place and disperses fumes of all sorts rather quickly.

Is that some sort of a guess?

[heironymouspasparagus]

That will work for Chlorine, but not Chloramine.

Every winter we place warm-mist vaporizers in living areas to increase comfort (and not have to turn the heat up so much).
While the steam that comes out is sterile, I have to wonder what affect aerosol chloramine might be having.

Yeah...I kinda got close to blending the two right there, and they definitely do not react the same.  It will work for chloramine, but rather than 4 to 6 hours, it's half life is about 26 days.  Takes forever without a little 'kick'.  UV does nicely.  But then ya still got to do something with a few residuals and some free radicals.  Aeration works well for that in a reasonably short time.

There are reasonable ways to treat "whole-house" water - if you don't try to do lawn water at same time.  (Lawn water can be done, but much more expensive)  That's why I was asking TTC if he had done any of those things.  Watch while I go back and quote his latest non-reply....let's see if we can get an answer out of him this time!

Oh, and for the vaporizers...I would be more concerned about bacteria that might have a little niche to get started in one of those things.  The nooks and cranies are perfect breeding places, and the vapor coming out, though hot, will probably have cooler "edges"...  think in terms of those deep ocean volcanic vents where the hot central core is sterile, but there is massive amounts of life around the edges....

[heironymouspasparagus]

I try to limit my exposure to poisons even if it means limiting my time around refineries or eating little if any bad foods or taking fewer showers.

Most the city water goes on my yard...and it's showing the curse of chloramines. Or is it the drought?

Which brings us full circle to the question I asked a couple times before - have you done any of the very reasonable cost things that are very effective at removing the chloramines BEFORE they get to your shower?  Or drinking water, for that matter...

Will add the follow-on question; if you have done, exactly what is it that you have done?  (Type of equipment, treatments, etc.)

You have a perfect opportunity to prove the ranting is NOT a case of "do what I say, not what I do..."

[Teatownclown]

Yeah...I kinda got close to blending the two right there, and they definitely do not react the same.  It will work for chloramine, but rather than 4 to 6 hours, it's half life is about 26 days.  Takes forever without a little 'kick'.  UV does nicely.  But then ya still got to do something with a few residuals and some free radicals.  Aeration works well for that in a reasonably short time.

There are reasonable ways to treat "whole-house" water - if you don't try to do lawn water at same time.  (Lawn water can be done, but much more expensive)  That's why I was asking TTC if he had done any of those things.  Watch while I go back and quote his latest non-reply....let's see if we can get an answer out of him this time!

Oh, and for the vaporizers...I would be more concerned about bacteria that might have a little niche to get started in one of those things.  The nooks and cranies are perfect breeding places, and the vapor coming out, though hot, will probably have cooler "edges"...  think in terms of those deep ocean volcanic vents where the hot central core is sterile, but there is massive amounts of life around the edges....

Why should I go to the trouble to retro fit my home again to balance the chloramine? There seems to be a disastrous affect  on everything it passes through.

Every body is different. My skin is doing much better away from the city of Tulsa's putrid aqua. As far as my lawn goes, I can't tell if the issues are drought driven or dismal Dewey drip.

And, this is the wrong use for a vaporizer.....

[heironymouspasparagus]

Why should I go to the trouble to retro fit my home again to balance the chloramine? There seems to be a disastrous affect  on everything it passes through.

Every body is different. My skin is doing much better away from the city of Tulsa's putrid aqua. As far as my lawn goes, I can't tell if the issues are drought driven or dismal Dewey drip.

And, this is the wrong use for a vaporizer.....

Kind of goes to how much convenience you want in life.  Given the side effects of trihalomethanes (carcinogens formed when chlorine reacts with organic matter), versus the lower effect of chloramines, well, you just gotta pick your poison and be glad you didn't die from typhoid when you were 4 years old.  If you can't appreciate the extra years you have already had, well, I guess there's just no pleasing ya....

As for disastrous affect - well, as always in the physical world, it depends.  For aquariums, there is not likely to be a quicker way to kill your fish than tap water with either chlorine OR and especially chloramine!  Plants...well, some of the talk I hear, it may not have as disastrous effect as one would expect.  And dialysis!!

If you are doing better, great.  For hundreds, or maybe low thousands of dollars, you might be able to get back onto the water by doing your own personal treatment.  Depends on how much convenience you want and how much you want to not spend on bottled water.  Perhaps you do whole-house RO...for shower and drinking water... if so, I would like to know how much that cost you to put in and what the ongoing energy and water costs are.

Or maybe a distillation unite??  That is my current path of interest - building a solar still.

I don't use the vaporizer...that's patric.  I just take the hit from dryness and go on.



Here is an interesting paper (2009) specifically discussing Tulsa water.  Page 6 kind of mildly surprised me the amount of hypochlorous acid (25%) versus hypochlorite.  When I was working with it, I don't remember the hypochlorous being so large.  And nitrification is a huge issue, especially since so much of our water comes from where all the chickens are doing their "thing" - lots of added nitrogen!!

http://dc.library.okstate.edu/utils/getfile/collection/theses/id/3985/filename/3986.pdf