Mitts Pick

[Red Arrow]

I don't believe you Red.

Your choice.

I think there are sources that are believable by both sides even thought they say things you don't want to hear. If not, then each side cancels each other out and what is left is your own deductions from fact.

Unfortunately, I believe that is where we are.  The posts I see on TNF are so partisan that I am losing interest in even trying to engage in conversation.

You're pretty good about making deductions from facts.

Thank you

What deduction do you draw from a guy who previously lied to the public when he refused to show his tax forms when he ran for governor of Massachusetts.

I don't have proof of lies or not.

A guy who expects his VP candidates to show more tax returns than he does and who refuses to make the issue disappear by simply affirming his truthfulness with the release of a couple more years?

I can accept a difference between public disclosure and private disclosure

[heironymouspasparagus]

First, how do you know it is a Roth. Never heard that. Second, it has been explained several places (see one below) how a balance of BETWEEN $25M and $100M could end up in an IRA. There is a limit on how much an individual can put in there, but the employee isn't the only contributor. The employer is allowed to make contributions as well. And the articles also describe how the IRS allows for valuations that could have made Bain's investments valued extremely low when he put them in. If that's the case, he will pay even more taxes (on income) than he had put investments in at a higher valuation. If it is not a Roth (which is extremely unlikely), then he will pay taxes on this income, it is just deferred. He is not avoiding taxes, he is just deferring when he pays it.

http://www.boston.com/politicalintelligence/2012/08/10/mitt-romney-ira-unlikely-centerpiece-wealth-and-tax-avoidance/snjZMpnYF8bbTG3HUMtflO/story.html

Probably not a Roth - conclusion I jumped to based on very sloppy descriptions of being a tax free IRA that I have heard.  


True, others can contribute, but the limit is still $30,000 per year max by all parties involved.  And then to have us believe that he was able to turn several hundred thousand dollars (10 years or so at 30k) into even $20 million??  You find that plausible at all??

Would be much like Baby Bush's returns when he "bought" the Texas Rangers for a few hundred thousand using money he "borrowed" from good buddies, then sold for about $250 million in 1998.  Bush's share was over 15 million.  Somewhere in the range of 2500 percent return on money invested for about 10 years.  Not quite as good as Romney's, but hey, Mitt is the better "businessman".

Oh, and the original loan - forgiven, so he didn't even have to pay that back.  Plus a whole bunch of other convoluted dealings with buddies that got them some pretty sweet stuff, too.  Not bad being governor, so you can give your buddies a "hand up, not a handout"....


And as stated earlier, Romney is counting on the capital gains going to zero, so he won't have to pay any.

[Red Arrow]

- conclusion I jumped to

No big surprise.

[heironymouspasparagus]

No big surprise.

And again, as always - out of context so can be warped and twisted....

[Red Arrow]

And again, as always - out of context so can be warped and twisted....

You are one of the TNF posters that I have some respect for on almost any subject EXCEPT politics.  Spin away.

[heironymouspasparagus]

You are one of the TNF posters that I have some respect for on almost any subject EXCEPT politics.  Spin away.

Here - I fix it for you - complete context....

conclusion I jumped to based on very sloppy descriptions of being a tax free IRA that I have heard.

[Red Arrow]

Here - I fix it for you - complete context....
conclusion I jumped to based on very sloppy descriptions of being a tax free IRA that I have heard.

For someone who prides himself on his English language expertise, why did you not say "fixed" instead of "fix"?  That's NOT a typo.

Why would any rational person jump to conclusions based on sloppy descriptions?  You disappoint me.

[heironymouspasparagus]

For someone who prides himself on his English language expertise, why did you not say "fixed" instead of "fix"?  That's NOT a typo.

Why would any rational person jump to conclusions based on sloppy descriptions?  You disappoint me.

I fix - as in "I can has Cheezburger"

http://cheezburger.com/6491206912

[Red Arrow]

I fix - as in "I can has Cheezburger"
http://cheezburger.com/6491206912

?

Mrs. Whatshername would turn over in her grave.

[Hoss]

?

Mrs. Whatshername would turn over in her grave.

I said about a month or so ago you had no humor.   

[Red Arrow]

I said about a month or so ago you had no humor.   

You were wrong then and you are wrong now.

[Hoss]

You were wrong then and you are wrong now.

Then obviously the LOLCATs are missed upon you.  I've found it funny.  For over five years now.

Oh, one more thing.  Opinions aren't wrong.     Just as your assessment of my opinion isn't wrong from your point of view.

[Red Arrow]

Oh, one more thing.  Opinions aren't wrong.     Just as your assessment of my opinion isn't wrong from your point of view.

Whatever.

[nathanm]

it is just deferred. He is not avoiding taxes, he is just deferring when he pays it.

Deferring taxes is avoiding tax, that's why you do it. Rather than the government getting the benefit of the present value of the income tax that would otherwise be due, they only get the discounted future value. It's a trade that can be worth a lot depending on your time horizon.

And yes, the IRS does allow abusively low valuations of certain types of assets when they're put into an IRA or trust. It should have been valued at the NPV of the future income the investment represents since there is no defined market value. Instead, the lack of a defined market value (arguably, the IRS lets people get away with this) means it can be valued at zero or close to zero, even though there's no way in hell Romney would sell his carried interest for that price.

Abusive valuation of assets is nothing new. Over the last 30 years or so, quite a few non-profit health insurers have gone private, somehow making their former director/new CEOs very rich in a very short span of time. That's really easy to do when you buy a health insurer for $120,000 and take it public with a $250,000,000 valuation a couple of months later after making no real changes to the business. Even Warren Buffet used a scam like this to enrich himself, and he was already a freakin' billionaire. a**hole.

[Red Arrow]

Rather than the government getting the benefit of the present value of the income tax that would otherwise be due, they only get the discounted future value.

The government will also get taxes on the earnings of that tax deferred money that would not have earned anything had it been paid in tax.