Some numbers in the Vision 2025 package

[Gaspar]

Gas... This has been going on in cities all across the country.  We are not the lone gunman.  It has nothing to do with Obama or Bush policies.  I don't know when it started, but I remember Whirlpool getting a nice cushy deal to open their plant back in the nineties and I know that was common for them.  Cities do what they do to entice businesses.  We can bite our thumb at the process, but if you don't play the game, you will always be the loser.  Tulsa has to do what it can to bring in businesses.  Sure we have a good location-- center of the country and close to a water port.  But with rail, air freight, ground freight, over night shipping etc. any location can be a hub for a business. 

Big, big difference.  I am aware that incentive plans are always part of these things, and for the most part, if they offer a return in jobs, infrastructure, or other improvement, I have little problem with them.  As with any INVESTMENT in a company, it is important to vet that company to make sure that first, a return is possible, and second that the company will be a good steward of your investment.  AA has consistently shown that they are willing to make management decisions, and financial decisions that point them directly towards continued bankruptcy.  In turn, they are looking to the communities that support them for financial incentive, not to grow, but to survive.  The idea of my tax money going to temporary plans to prop up failure is the definition of the Obamanomic system.  If we want to be offering incentive, it needs to be devoted to viable businesses, not knee-jerk reactions towards failure.

[nathanm]

Someone clearly thinks a little too highly of the airline business. Not a one of them has ever figured out how to make money over the long haul. Southwest does OK because they're smart enough to keep their route network small and focus on point to point trips. Unfortunately, there's only so much of that to be done.

[Conan71]

Someone clearly thinks a little too highly of the airline business. Not a one of them has ever figured out how to make money over the long haul. Southwest does OK because they're smart enough to keep their route network small and focus on point to point trips. Unfortunately, there's only so much of that to be done.

...and quick gate turns...and flying one aircraft type...and one class of airfare...and not taking it up the tailpipe from unions...

I read somewhere that the overall history of the passenger airline industry has been a net loss.

[nathanm]

...and quick gate turns...and flying one aircraft type...and one class of airfare...and not taking it up the tailpipe from unions...

And then they bought AirTran.

[Hoss]

And then they bought AirTran.

They still do incredibly quick gate turns, because the pilots know, especially at smaller fields, how to land to minimize taxiing.  In the summer at TIA it's not such a huge issue because most planes land to the south and the terminal is on the south end, at the end of the rollout.  However, during north winds, if it's not too brisk and not IFR, SW pilots as often as they can will ask for the crosswind runway (that dumps off just north of the terminal).  If they had to land on the north/south runway, they'd have a nearly 1 and 1/4 mile taxi back to the gate.  That can shave almost 10 minutes off gate turnaround.

[JCnOwasso]

They still do incredibly quick gate turns, because the pilots know, especially at smaller fields, how to land to minimize taxiing.  In the summer at TIA it's not such a huge issue because most planes land to the south and the terminal is on the south end, at the end of the rollout.  However, during north winds, if it's not too brisk and not IFR, SW pilots as often as they can will ask for the crosswind runway (that dumps off just north of the terminal).  If they had to land on the north/south runway, they'd have a nearly 1 and 1/4 mile taxi back to the gate.  That can shave almost 10 minutes off gate turnaround.

This reminds me of landing at Fairbanks "international" airport.  The pilots would land, slam the brakes and be in the gate within a single minute.  Of course that airport only had 4 gates, but still.

[Gaspar]

This reminds me of landing at Fairbanks "international" airport.  The pilots would land, slam the brakes and be in the gate within a single minute.  Of course that airport only had 4 gates, but still.

Kansas City used to be that way.  About the time the reverse thrusters finished off the landing sequence, the plane would turn sharply and you would just about screech into gate docking position. The sky-waitresses couldn't make the "please stay seated" announcement fast enough.

BTW, don't call them sky-waitresses.  They hate that.

[Hoss]

Kansas City used to be that way.  About the time the reverse thrusters finished off the landing sequence, the plane would turn sharply and you would just about screech into gate docking position. The sky-waitresses couldn't make the "please stay seated" announcement fast enough.

BTW, don't call them sky-waitresses.  They hate that.

Nor call them 'stewardess'.  They REALLY hate that.

[Conan71]

Nor call them 'stewardess'.  They REALLY hate that.

Especially when it's a dude.

[Hoss]

Especially when it's a dude.

Well, obviously.  But even the women.  Don't call men 'stewards', either.  Equally as offensive.

[Teatownclown]

Some more numbers....and disagreements. Another reason why we should be careful.

Jazz Hall of Fame owes $30,000 in unpaid electric bills
By KEVIN CANFIELD World Staff Writer
Published: 8/19/2012  2:24 AM
Last Modified: 8/19/2012  8:01 AM

The Tulsa County Industrial Authority on Monday will discuss in an executive session what to do about more than $30,000 in unpaid electric bills at the Jazz Hall of Fame.

The Jazz Hall of Fame leases the Union Depot at First Street and Cincinnati Avenue, a facility purchased and refurbished by the county with $4 million in Vision 2025 funds.

"We have received notice from PSO that the Jazz Hall of Fame is behind by a considerable amount on their utility payments," said County Commissioner John Smaligo, who is chairman of the Industrial Authority.

Smaligo said one of the first issues that needs to be resolved is why the Jazz Hall of Fame has not put the utility bill in its name, as called for under its lease with the Industrial Authority.

Smaligo said it is his understanding that the bills have been sent to the Jazz Hall of Fame but continue to name the Industrial Authority as the customer.

"We need to find out if the service is still in the name of the Industrial Authority, and if so, why?" Smaligo said.

Jason McIntosh, chief executive officer of the Jazz Hall of Fame, said that what is owed to the Jazz Hall by the Industrial Authority will more than offset the Industrial Authority's claim.

"To characterize it as anything else is incorrect," said McIntosh, who didn't elaborate on what the county owed the Jazz Hall of Fame.

The utility payments are the latest in a series of run-ins the Jazz Hall of Fame has had with the Industrial Authority over late payments and bounced checks.

Earlier this year, a $3,882 check from the Jazz Hall of Fame to the Industrial Authority to cover half a year of insurance on the Union Depot arrived months late and then bounced.

At the time, McIntosh described the incident as an embarrassing error.

"Systems are now in place to prevent that from happening," he said.

Smaligo would not discuss what actions the Industrial Authority could take in response to the late payments. But the Industrial Authority's agreement with the Jazz Hall of Fame includes the option of terminating the lease if certain financial obligations are not met.

Questions about the financial condition of the Hall of Fame surfaced in 2010, when the authority agreed to pay $222,881 in operating expenses the organization had incurred at the Union Depot building from June 2007 through October 2009.

Then-Hall of Fame CEO Chuck Cissell said at the time that the authority's payment was part of the Hall of Fame's lease and that the organization had lived up to all of its contractual obligations.


Original Print Headline: Jazz hall owes PSO $30,000

Maybe, there should be a merging of the POP Hall of Fame and The Jazz Hall Of Fame. Do away with duplicitous, unnecessary government expenditures.

[Gaspar]

Nor call them 'stewardess'.  They REALLY hate that.

Nor. . .
Sugar
Honey buns
Sweetie
Baby Doll
Pumpkin
Blumpkin

[Hoss]

Nor. . .
Sugar
Honey buns
Sweetie
Baby Doll
Pumpkin
Blumpkin

You sound like you're reciting that list from experience.

[nathanm]

Big, big difference.  I am aware that incentive plans are always part of these things, and for the most part, if they offer a return in jobs, infrastructure, or other improvement, I have little problem with them. 

That's right. You're all for the thumb of government on the scales of the free market any time you think it's a good idea. But if you don't think it's a good idea, the ghost of Milton Friedman will get us in our sleep!

[Ed W]

Does the city own any of those facilities? I don't believe that to be the case. Not that I think funneling a bunch of money in AA's direction is a great plan or anything, but it does make somewhat more sense than your modest proposal.

Much of the expensive equipment on the AA base is owned by the airport trust.  As it was 'splained to me long ago, the idea is that it remains here in Tulsa even if AA decides to pull out.  That's not just the buildings.  The trust owns the docks, I'm told, and even has some of the more expensive equipment in our avionics shop. 

Modern aircraft electronics, those so-called black boxes, are becoming more integrated.  The 727 had three separate autopilot boxes for roll, yaw, and pitch.  More modern flight control computers have it all in one box, and may include the circuit cards necessary to provide virtual instruments and more.  As a result of this integration, the test equipment is becoming far more complex and expensive, driving many airlines toward sending their boxes back to the manufacturer for repair.  This makes the involvement of the airport trust far more important.  If the airline buys the equipment with the assistance of the trust, it's going to remain in Tulsa.