What Message Do You Want To Hear At The Democratic National Convention?

[Hoss]

All I am saying is that having offshore accounts does NOT equal hiding something illegal.

It would be along the lines of me saying that because Obama grew up in Indonesia and went to a Muslim school that he is a Muslim that wasn't born in this country. One does not necessarily mean that the other occurred.

And all I'm saying is 'why doesn't he release the returns?'  Oh that's right, he got his wife to say they weren't releasing any more.  Got it.

[erfalf]

And all I'm saying is 'why doesn't he release the returns?'  Oh that's right, he got his wife to say they weren't releasing any more.  Got it.

I don't remember, were you one of those birthers in 2008?

[Hoss]

I don't remember, were you one of those birthers in 2008?

And this question is relevant how?

[erfalf]

And this question is relevant how?

Well, a President being born in this country is decidedly more important than what is on a person's tax return. And if you think there is something illegal, I would advise against it. I would think it would be extremely unlikely that he hasn't been audited multiple times over the years. And I'm sure there is a zillion people that "know someone at the IRS" that would love to get there hands on something like that.

[Hoss]

Well, a President being born in this country is decidedly more important than what is on a person's tax return. And if you think there is, I would advise against it. I would think it would be extremely unlikely that he hasn't been audited multiple times over the years. And I'm sure there is a zillion people that "know someone at the IRS" that would love to get there hands on something like that.

Oh good heavens.  Really?  Did you believe he wasn't?  I mean the guy was in the Illinois state house for quite a while, a US Senator for a term, and a Presidental candidate.  He produced a perfectly legal Hawaii BC.  No one ever asked John McCain to do so, even though he was born in the Canal Zone (which still makes him a legal US citizen).

And then the nutters continued calling him Muslim, a Kenyan, a Communist, also asking for him to provide his original birth certificate....but somehow asking Mittens to release more of his tax returns when he is running on his business acumen as a reason he should be president...when other Presidents have released up to 12 years or more....is not fair?

Really?  Wow.  That KoolAid must be really tasty where you live.

My grandfather once again, used to tell me 'where there's smoke, there is usually fire'.  In this case, the refrain from releasing the returns and outright stating they won't is something that is going to dog him until November.  Do I think he's done something illegal?  Probably not.  Do I think he's hiding the real amount of taxes he's paid over the years?

Once again. 'where there's smoke'....

[Red Arrow]

Now we are getting somewhere.  Thank you RM & Gaspar.  I'll take a turn now.

Yes, this will astound some people who know me, but I'd even be in favor of temporary price controls as a way to help free up cash for consumers to spend in other parts of the economy.

I believe that was tried by Nixon in the 70s.  The resulting gas lines probably used more gasoline than low tire pressure and bad tune ups combined.  I was fortunate enough to be a volunteer fireman in the Va Beach area and was able to buy some (limited quantities) of gasoline from the City of Va Beach if I couldn't get gasoline elsewhere.  Also, if you were a regular at a gas station, you were frequently allowed to fill up rather than just buy a few gallons depending on how much gas the station had available.

I think reining in the speculators is a good idea. Make them pay 100% up front for whatever they want to buy for the future.

[nathanm]

The two own a huge portion of the home loans and were extremely adversly effected. In addition, there is some extremely lax accounting standards within the two GSE with many re-statements.

Yes, they were very much affected by the housing bubble. I didn't say there aren't/weren't problems there, I said they didn't cause the subprime implosion that set off the crisis. They just didn't buy that many subprime loans relative to other market players. They were simply more valuable as part of a CDO than they would have been as plain MBS issued by Fannie and Freddie. A CDO could be arranged to get a AAA rating, even if it was mostly subprime. A bare subprime MBS, however, did not have that feature.

[Red Arrow]

Oh good heavens.  Really?  Did you believe he wasn't?  I mean the guy was in the Illinois state house for quite a while, a US Senator for a term,

I never believed he was not a natural born citizen of the US but being a natural born citizen is not a requirement for the Illinois State House or the US Senate.

...but somehow asking Mittens to release more of his tax returns when he is running on his business acumen as a reason he should be president...

Why are you and other taxreturners not more interested in the tax returns of the companies he ran than his personal income tax.  That would be more indicative of his business success regardless of his personal success.

[Conan71]

You can see where FRED gets its data. It's the same place.

You may note that there is a difference between median household income and personal income. For someone who regularly poo-poohs any idea that income inequality is a problem, you sure seem rather interested in the median income today. Oh, that's right, it's something you can use to beat Obama about the head with. You really think that's something that Mitt Romney is going to do anything about?

You may be interested to know that the average wage of production and nonsupervisory workers is also up significantly since Obama took office. It was a hair over $18.40 an hour at the time, now it's a hair over $19.80. Yes, unemployment is high. For those who are working, however, the economy is looking surprisingly good, especially when compared to the rest of the world, where declining wages are the norm, outside of China and Australia, anyway.

I'll look at the study later and see if I can divine exactly where the divergence is.

I can save you some time.  Personal income includes all classes including the exceedingly rich.  FRED graphs are interesting but include little interpretation of data which makes it dangerous to swing them around like a battle axe.    

It's important to point out that the middle class has lost $4000 a year in income while gas is $2.00 higher per gallon higher, and the average family is paying $3000 more per year in health insurance premiums than they were in Jan. 2009 and their groceries, clothing, and anything else dependent on fuel to get to market is higher.  Their buying power is worse now than it was four years ago.  That's a considerable reason why the economy is still staggering.

I personally don't care about income inequality.  I don't obsess about it.  I've personally had two of my better years the last two income-wise.  I can also say it's not been a specific policy of Obama's which resulted in it.  Investment from the oil patch independent of any federal action still fuels the Oklahoma economy.  Actually, from a purely selfish standpoint I'd love to see much tighter emissions restrictions on any gas burning appliance of over a 1 million BTU per hour firing rate.  I'd also love to see more incentives for Bio-D and ethanol.  Again, because my company is uniquely positioned to take advantage of such things.  I realize the country is bigger than me and my profit/retirement motives though.  Tougher emissions restrictions would result in more small businesses either suffering high costs to comply, cutting costs to comply, or simply closing shop.

What concerns me, and why it's important to keep the statistics at the forefront is that it worries me people would really turn around and vote for someone who promised he would improve the condition of the middle class while the exact opposite has happened.  I don't see a single result of the last four years which appears to show the middle class has improved under the Obama administration.  That's a key talking point of Democrats and it shows an abject failure.  

I'm not holding President responsible for any of these metrics any different than any other presidents have benefitted from them or been castigated by them.

[nathanm]

Funny that you're suddenly concerned about a trend that you not only have poo-poohed previously, but did in this very post. A trend that has continued unabated since about 1978. Again, average wages for nonsupervisory employees are up. Yes, there are many unemployed dragging household income numbers lower. The average job, however, is paying more. This bodes well for the condition of the middle class should we manage to get job growth to a more reasonable level for the current unemployment rate. It would help if the Europeans would stop screwing around and fix their problems, but they're too stuck on austerity.

It's also a little funny that you blame Obama for the meltdown that occurred on his predecessor's watch. I grant that there has been less progress than I (or most anyone) would like in repairing the damage, but we have gone from an actively shrinking economy to an actively growing one, if not quite robustly. More would be better, but it's hard to do more when the House won't even consider any proposal that has a chance at helping anything before the election.

[Hoss]

Funny that you're suddenly concerned about a trend that you not only have poo-poohed previously, but did in this very post. A trend that has continued unabated since about 1978. Again, average wages for nonsupervisory employees are up. Yes, there are many unemployed dragging household income numbers lower. The average job, however, is paying more. This bodes well for the condition of the middle class should we manage to get job growth to a more reasonable level for the current unemployment rate. It would help if the Europeans would stop screwing around and fix their problems, but they're too stuck on austerity.

It's also a little funny that you blame Obama for the meltdown that occurred on his predecessor's watch. I grant that there has been less progress than I (or most anyone) would like in repairing the damage, but we have gone from an actively shrinking economy to an actively growing one, if not quite robustly. More would be better, but it's hard to do more when the House won't even consider any proposal that has a chance at helping anything before the election.

But you have to remember that to many of the Republicans, of which I keep hearing them call Obama the "Messiah", he should be able to spin silk from a sow's ear.  See what I did there?

I defended other presidents on this as well (including Republicans).  Presidents can influence the purse strings, but they don't control them.  I've never been able to get a tea party loon to understand that.

[Red Arrow]

Presidents can influence the purse strings, but they don't control them. 

Except, of course, GW Bush who single handedly destroyed life as we know it in the USA without any outside factors to assist him.

[guido911]

Here's a great message coming from the convention...

http://weaselzippers.us/2012/09/05/death-threat-from-dnc-delegate-mitt-romney-i-would-like-to-kill-him/

The new Democrat symbol:

[RecycleMichael]

Well, a President being born in this country is decidedly more important than what is on a person's tax return.

No. It is not.

Did you ask to see John McCain's birth certificate? No you didn't. He was born in Panama.
Romney's father ran for President and he was born in Mexico.

Obama has provided his birth certificate. If you mention this again, you will hereby labeled erfool.

[Red Arrow]

Well, a President being born in this country is decidedly more important than what is on a person's tax return.

No. It is not.

Did you ask to see John McCain's birth certificate? No you didn't. He was born in Panama.
Romney's father ran for President and he was born in Mexico.

You may not think it is more important but it is a legal requirement for the President of the USA to be a natural born citizen of the USA.  That does not mean the candidate had to be born in the USA.  Having  parents (I think even just one qualifies) that are US citizens is good enough.