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[nathanm]

How would you equalize life expectancy due to race alone?

I don't expect it to be equal, but I do expect that decisions as to what the retirement age should be shouldn't be made without considering its impact on those who haven't shared in the life expectancy gains that others have realized. If we all had equal access to health care, regardless of financial considerations, I suspect that the life expectancy inequality would largely evaporate. There would still be some inequality in that respect (black males are a lot more likely to be killed in violent crime than white people of either gender), but at least it wouldn't be due to differing access to care.

I know you often think of me as some kind of far left winger, but I don't have any interest in ensuring that we all make the same amount of money or whatever. I do, however, think that we should all have access to regular health care whether we've got money or not. The "put it all on the ER" that we're doing now and that Romney wants to continue clearly doesn't work.

Just to be clear, I think income inequality is so high at present that it is weakening our economy and indeed the social fabric of our nation. I would like inequality to be less, not eliminated. Obviously, in most cases, CEOs deserve more pay than line workers. They simply create more value for the organization. It seems unlikely that they actually provide a thousand times or more value, though. I also think work should be taxed the same as investment. I know the right wingers like to go on about savings having already been taxed, which is true, but the implication is a lie. If you put $50,000 in the bank this year and withdraw $50,000 plus interest next year, it's not as if you pay tax on the $50,000 again. Even if the "bank" is actually stock or bonds or futures or derivatives.

Red, two things. First, 401ks also often have a vesting schedule. My SO gets both a 401k and a defined benefit pension (I don't get smile since I work for myself), both have a 5 year vesting schedule for company contributions. Now that the 5 years have passed, all company contributions are hers to keep, and at retirement (65, for her plan) the pension will pay out about $165 a month if she left today. Before she hit her 5 years, the company contributions in the 401k would go back to the employer.

Second, you're getting screwed. It is patently ridiculous that they can use company stock as a 401k match. Do you get the company match each pay period, or is it just a lump sum once a year?

[Red Arrow]

I know you often think of me as some kind of far left winger,

OK, maybe just a far left shoulder.

Obviously, in most cases, CEOs deserve more pay than line workers. They simply create more value for the organization. It seems unlikely that they actually provide a thousand times or more value, though.

I agree that some CEO pay is absurd as earned income.  I also think that if the company is struggling and the CEO is fired that there should be no parachute, platinum, gold, or tin.  Maybe a lead balloon or concrete boots would be appropriate.  I don't care about investment income quantities. 

Red, two things. First, 401ks also often have a vesting schedule. My SO gets both a 401k and a defined benefit pension (I don't get smile since I work for myself), both have a 5 year vesting schedule for company contributions. Now that the 5 years have passed, all company contributions are hers to keep, and at retirement (65, for her plan) the pension will pay out about $165 a month if she left today. Before she hit her 5 years, the company contributions in the 401k would go back to the employer.

Could be.  That's not the way I understand my present plan or the 3 previous places I worked.

Second, you're getting screwed. It is patently ridiculous that they can use company stock as a 401k match. Do you get the company match each pay period, or is it just a lump sum once a year?

I'll have to check again.  I know that company stock ends up in my 401K.  It may be above and beyond the matching funds of up to 4%.  I believe the matching funds, stock or otherwise, are entered every other pay check which is 4 weeks.  As I said earlier, I believe it is also available for immediate transfer to another fund within the 401K.

[Red Arrow]

I don't expect it to be equal, but I do expect that decisions as to what the retirement age should be shouldn't be made without considering its impact on those who haven't shared in the life expectancy gains that others have realized. If we all had equal access to health care, regardless of financial considerations, I suspect that the life expectancy inequality would largely evaporate. There would still be some inequality in that respect (black males are a lot more likely to be killed in violent crime than white people of either gender), but at least it wouldn't be due to differing access to care.

Then the racial aspect of life expectancy is probably more economic and social than racial.  In this case, racial being genetic considerations, not the social and economic situations usually associated with race.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I agree that some CEO pay is absurd as earned income.  I also think that if the company is struggling and the CEO is fired that there should be no parachute, platinum, gold, or tin.  Maybe a lead balloon or concrete boots would be appropriate.  I don't care about investment income quantities. 

Abercrombie & Fitch  - reported annual income - several hundred thousand dollars.

CEO W-2 pay - a few more hundred thousand.

CEO total compensation - $125 million.

Disparity??   Naw....not in this universe....

[Red Arrow]

Abercrombie & Fitch  - reported annual income - several hundred thousand dollars.
CEO W-2 pay - a few more hundred thousand.
CEO total compensation - $125 million.
Disparity??   Naw....not in this universe....

First off - how does that dispute what I said?  Stock options etc for on the job time are not what I consider investment income.  It is still compensation for time on the job doing what the job description requires.

Second off - a statistical example of one.  I know there are more but you better start listing them ALL.

I know how to hit the return line many times too!

Edit:
Remove a few returns.  I cannot stand being a space waster and cannot follow Heiron's example.

[nathanm]

How about we just go for the average. If you limit it to only CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, it looks much the same, just higher in general and higher peaks above that level.



The downward trend there at the end has almost certainly reversed with the stock market. The latest data in this graph is from 2010. TBH, I'm more in awe of their ballsy tax avoidance schemes than the level of pay itself.

[Red Arrow]

How about we just go for the average. If you limit it to only CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, it looks much the same, just higher in general and higher peaks above that level.



The downward trend there at the end has almost certainly reversed with the stock market. The latest data in this graph is from 2010. TBH, I'm more in awe of their ballsy tax avoidance schemes than the level of pay itself.

I agree that CEOs are often paid more than I would think they are worth.  Having said that though, do you have some more info like standard deviation and other statistical things I barely remember from college?

For example:
The average of 100 CEOs making $300,000/yr and 5 CEOs making $125,000,000/yr is $6,238,095/yr.  WOW! the average of 105 CEOs is $6M/yr  (M=Mega to you natural gas guys) but most of them are only about 10 to 20X a lot of workers because of less than 5% of the CEOs.

[nathanm]

This chart is in 2008 dollars and shows both the mean and the median.

[Red Arrow]

This chart is in 2008 dollars and shows both the mean and the median.

Still looking for a distribution.

[guido911]

[nathanm]

Indeed, guido. Throw the Republicans out of Congress so we can get Obama's supposedly failed agenda actually passed into law. We've been cutting taxes and holding the line on spending for a few years now, and now have a nice spending cut coming up.

[guido911]

This SHOULD be an ad...

[Teatownclown]

This SHOULD be an ad...

Quit with posting the emotionally disturbed...makes you seem insensitive.


Joe Conason and Jon Soltz Discuss Mitt Romney's Cop Impersonation and Vietnam Deferment

[Conan71]

Quit with posting the emotionally disturbed...makes you seem insensitive.

What does that say about your sensitivity from when you used to post pieces by Madcow and Olberdoosh?  Talk about a couple of emotionally disturbed people...

[heironymouspasparagus]

First off - how does that dispute what I said?  Stock options etc for on the job time are not what I consider investment income.  It is still compensation for time on the job doing what the job description requires.

Second off - a statistical example of one.  I know there are more but you better start listing them ALL.

I know how to hit the return line many times too!

Edit:
Remove a few returns.  I cannot stand being a space waster and cannot follow Heiron's example.

I wasn't saying you were disputing it, I was providing a classic example - one of the most extreme, granted...but it is the universal constant in corporate America.  Kind of a more typical example; 800k W-2 income.  15 million on "other" income - exempt from regular income tax.