Urbanized Areas

[TulsaRufnex]

You know, my moniker "Oil Capital" is not all that creative.  Believe it or not, someone else in Oklahoma came up with that name as well.  It is not me.  I am not even a member of the OKCTalk forum.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make regarding the BA vs. Northwest Expressway.  Is the  BA really your evidence of Tulsa's superior density and walkability?

Trust me, i know Tulsans care about the city limits statistics, not because it is at all meaningful, but because it supports their mythology that Tulsa is in all ways more urban than OKC.  Funny thing, when the actual developed urban areas are compared they are quite similar (OKC slightly more dense).  And even when we do an apples to apples comparison of your preferred Walkability scores, it turns out the two cities are quite similar.  I know it is difficult for Tulsans to accept, but those are the facts.  Continuing to live in the land of denial will get you nowhere.

Sorry bub, but I caught this before you could edit it...
"If the BA is your evidence of density or walkability, Tulsa is more of a joke than I thought."

You're busted.  

[Oil Capital]

Sorry bub, but I caught this before you could edit it...
"If the BA is your evidence of density or walkability, Tulsa is more of a joke than I thought."

You're busted.  

Busted how, exactly?  I have never made any particular effort to hide the fact that I think Tulsa is a joke, especially when the real Tulsa is compared to the Tulsa mythology.  That doesn't change any of the facts.  Nor do your constant ad hominem attacks change the reality.  

I guess I have your answer to the question of whether you actually wanted to discuss the "walkability" factor or just wanted to be snarky.

[TulsaRufnex]

You're busted because you have a hidden agenda.
You can pretend you're just trying to be thoughtful and helpful... but you're just an OKC booster who hates living in Tulsa (thinks this city is a "joke")...
Too bad you didn't get a job in Houston, a city you actually like.
Evidently, little has changed in the years you've been posting on TulsaNow and OKCTalk.

[TulsaRufnex]

There's also some areas north of roughly Hefner and west of I-35 which are still surprisingly under-developed.  I remember going to visit friends in OKC when I was going to school at OSU in the mid '80's and marveling at all these 4 lane roads in north OKC which had little, if any commercial or residential development at the time and thinking Tulsa was stupid for not having done that before the development to the south exploded.  Of course, I've had it explained many times as to the failure of the original Eastland Shopping center failure in the early 1970's was that it was expected that Tulsa's growth was most definitely east since growth to the south would be cut off by the Arkansas River, so that may well explain the  apparent lack of planning on south Tulsa arterials.

I remember the same thing.  Although I wonder if the Union school district had included east Tulsa things would have played out alot differently.

Did you ever hit Bricktown in the 80s?  Pretty scary.
But over the last 20 years, that was a pretty amazing turnaround.  
I kept wishing Tulsa could have something comparable in its downtown.

I remember, after moving here 6+ year ago, saying more than once that if downtown Tulsa could just have 2-3 blocks of stuff that stays open past 5pm, I'd be happy.
And McNellies seemed so... well... isolated.  

[Hoss]

I think the reason why Tulsa banked on east's explosion was the opening of the Port of Catoosa.  That's the reason I always get when I ask why 244 was 8 laned but the BA was initially only 4.

I do remember for years asking my Dad about the Eastland Mall construction as it sat dormant out there when he would take me flying his model airplanes at the Glue Dobbers field when they had it at 41st and 145th East Ave.

Now my old co-workers just moved in out there.

[TulsaRufnex]

That sounds right.  I remember going to the Plaza 3 movie theater as a kid when there really wasn't much there. 
I'm still confused that nobody could see the writing on the wall before Eastland Mall was constructed.

[TulsaRufnex]

You know, my moniker "Oil Capital" is not all that creative.  Believe it or not, someone else in Oklahoma came up with that name as well.  It is not me.  I am not even a member of the OKCTalk forum.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make regarding the BA vs. Northwest Expressway.  Is the  BA really your evidence of Tulsa's superior density and walkability?

Trust me, i know Tulsans care about the city limits statistics, not because it is at all meaningful, but because it supports their mythology that Tulsa is in all ways more urban than OKC.

Hmmm.  Interesting coincidence?  Separated at birth?

http://www.okctalk.com/food-restaurants/28277-la-madelines-coming-okc-tulsa.html#post496848

Quote Originally Posted by Oil Capital
Puck's is in Brookside. There is not a second one. And for the record, the Wolfgang Puck's is a franchise opened by a local person. If someone in OKC wants a Wolfgang Puck's, they could get themselves a franchise too.

Not sure if it would be as successful in OKC. In general, Tulsans are far more desperate to prove to themselves that they are a worldly, classy city, so they will flock mindlessly and obsessively to anything they think demonstrates such.

http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic-issues/21245-downtown-tulsa-development-ahead-okc-9.html#post323256
Quote Originally Posted by Spartan
Oil Capitol, it is good to have you in OKC and I am glad that you aren't an ex-Tulsan insisting that Tulsa is better. I'm glad you're one of us, I would just encourage you as well as everyone else to be a little more critical sometimes and a little less braindead blindly optimistic in OKC. If the only reason Saks is in Tulsa is because it's rent-free for them.. yeah, I'm sure that's how the world of high-fashion works. As for small, it's still two stories and typical dept store layout and quantity.

Who cares enough to get into a pissing war between shopping malls? They're all the scourge of the world in my opinion. I would be happy if Penn Square, Woodland Hills, Tulsa Promenade, and Quail Springs just got wiped off the face of the planet. It would infuse those cities with some more variety and diversity in retail.

As for stores/chains Tulsa has that OKC doesn't, there are so many. We've ran through so many of them on this forum. A few big names Tulsa has that OKC does not include Whole Foods, Dave & Busters, Anthropologie, Wolfgang Puck Bistro, Hard Rock Casino/Hotel, Fossil, Saks Fifth Avenue, Fleming's Steakhouse.. I could go on.

1, nobody cares about Vans, 2 Apple and Cheesecake came to OKC/Tulsa at the same time. Lego store?

Quote Originally Posted by Oil Capital
Oh, please DO go on Spartan, because the list you've provided is laughable. Especially when you follow it up by dismissing everything that shows the reverse because you don't care about those particular stores.

A few problems with your list. the Wolfgang Puck is a franchise. WP did not choose Tulsa. Some Tulsan chose WP (and is silly enough to pay an outrageous franchise fee for the name). Hard Rock Casino/Hotel... Whatever, man; BFD. You do know how that came about don't you? (And there isn't even a cafe there....) Dave & Buster's??? Wow. I'm impressed (not).

and more to the point, what do D&B, Fleming's, Hard Rock, and Wolfgang Puck have to do with subject of better shopping?

[Hoss]

Hmmm.  Interesting coincidence?  Separated at birth?

http://www.okctalk.com/food-restaurants/28277-la-madelines-coming-okc-tulsa.html#post496848
http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic-issues/21245-downtown-tulsa-development-ahead-okc-9.html#post323256
Quote Originally Posted by Spartan
Oil Capitol, it is good to have you in OKC and I am glad that you aren't an ex-Tulsan insisting that Tulsa is better. I'm glad you're one of us, I would just encourage you as well as everyone else to be a little more critical sometimes and a little less braindead blindly optimistic in OKC. If the only reason Saks is in Tulsa is because it's rent-free for them.. yeah, I'm sure that's how the world of high-fashion works. As for small, it's still two stories and typical dept store layout and quantity.

Who cares enough to get into a pissing war between shopping malls? They're all the scourge of the world in my opinion. I would be happy if Penn Square, Woodland Hills, Tulsa Promenade, and Quail Springs just got wiped off the face of the planet. It would infuse those cities with some more variety and diversity in retail.

As for stores/chains Tulsa has that OKC doesn't, there are so many. We've ran through so many of them on this forum. A few big names Tulsa has that OKC does not include Whole Foods, Dave & Busters, Anthropologie, Wolfgang Puck Bistro, Hard Rock Casino/Hotel, Fossil, Saks Fifth Avenue, Fleming's Steakhouse.. I could go on.

1, nobody cares about Vans, 2 Apple and Cheesecake came to OKC/Tulsa at the same time. Lego store?

The silence.  It's deafening...

[Conan71]

That sounds right.  I remember going to the Plaza 3 movie theater as a kid when there really wasn't much there. 
I'm still confused that nobody could see the writing on the wall before Eastland Mall was constructed.

I think Eastland was planned in the mid to late 1960's, work started around 1971 and shut down in 1972.  I think.  Seems like they had set the boilers and chillers in the basement and the boilers had 1972 data tags.  Seems like the Port really didn't take off until '73 or '74 and not sure what financial issue may have stopped work on Eastland, but IIRC, I believe it was around '86 or so when they finally found a chump, er buyer to finish it out.

The mechanical systems all required extensive repair/overhaul from sitting in water.  Honestly, it would have been cheaper to just start over.  No idea how they happened to come up with the money at the time to purchase the property and finally move forward at roughly the same time South Land Shopping Center was converted to the Promenade unless it was the same property/investment group. Somewhat bullish considering the financial crap storm Tulsa had just been through.  You could say those were the first two large scale bullish retail investments in the Tulsa area after our S & L melt down, along with $9/bbl oil.

[AquaMan]

Of some note was the economics of the second Nixon term. It was not good around here in 72-75. Nam, oil crisis, too many grads, too few jobs. East Tulsa did not pan out for lots of reasons, one being its tendency to flood and the other was problems with settling foundations which cracked the slabs. Much of the area is shale substrata. Builders got stung by both.

Meanwhile the leapfrogging of Tulsa real estate left sellers in a bind. Broken Arrow and Wagoner county were hot because of low taxes outside of Tulsa County and new school systems in BA. New buyers jumped over existing housing in near east. The same thing was happening south of I-44 as new construction was more popular and cheaper the farther south you went. Fueled Jenks and Bixby. Apartments and subsidized housing filled in. All of this spelled disaster for an expensive, innovative Eastland shopping center whose population base was not materializing. The following S&L meltdown finished her off.

At least, that's my memory. I sold real estate in that time period and my father was working for the big name builders as it all unfolded.

[tulsabug]

Personally I still view Guthrie as the true capitol of Oklahoma. OKC is just an imposter. 

[TulsaRufnex]

Personally I still view Guthrie as the true capitol of Oklahoma. OKC is just an imposter.  

Oh... see... now you're just being snarky.  Of course, I should not be one to talk, as I am a connaisseur of snarkasm myself...

Ironically, about a week and a half ago, I posted anti-OKC snark halfway down page 23 of bigsoccer.com's thread, Ideas for MLS League Design [Superthread] III (clear evidence that bigsoccer posters have entirely too much time on their hands)  http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/ideas-for-mls-league-design-superthread-iii.1844597/page-23

It starts thusly (and yes, I am a Monty Python fan),

Dear Oklahoma City,

Ooh, You are so big... So absolutely huge.
Gosh, we're all really impressed down here in Tulsa, I can tell You.
Forgive us, Oklahoma City, for this, our dreadful toadying, and barefaced flattery.
But You are so strong and, well, just so super. Fantastic. Amen.

...after the introductory paragraph is a snarky rant that may actually make more sense to Tulsans than it did to bigsoccer.com posters...

[patric]

As for stores/chains Tulsa has that OKC doesn't, there are so many. We've ran through so many of them on this forum. A few big names Tulsa has that OKC does not include Whole Foods, Dave & Busters, Anthropologie, Wolfgang Puck Bistro, Hard Rock Casino/Hotel, Fossil, Saks Fifth Avenue, Fleming's Steakhouse.. I could go on.

Not so good for the Casino, which is rumored to have just laid off three dozen staff.

[TulsaRufnex]

How many casinos can one city in the bible belt support?

[Oil Capital]

Hmmm.  Interesting coincidence?  Separated at birth?

http://www.okctalk.com/food-restaurants/28277-la-madelines-coming-okc-tulsa.html#post496848
http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic-issues/21245-downtown-tulsa-development-ahead-okc-9.html#post323256
Quote Originally Posted by Spartan
Oil Capitol, it is good to have you in OKC and I am glad that you aren't an ex-Tulsan insisting that Tulsa is better. I'm glad you're one of us, I would just encourage you as well as everyone else to be a little more critical sometimes and a little less braindead blindly optimistic in OKC. If the only reason Saks is in Tulsa is because it's rent-free for them.. yeah, I'm sure that's how the world of high-fashion works. As for small, it's still two stories and typical dept store layout and quantity.

Who cares enough to get into a pissing war between shopping malls? They're all the scourge of the world in my opinion. I would be happy if Penn Square, Woodland Hills, Tulsa Promenade, and Quail Springs just got wiped off the face of the planet. It would infuse those cities with some more variety and diversity in retail.

As for stores/chains Tulsa has that OKC doesn't, there are so many. We've ran through so many of them on this forum. A few big names Tulsa has that OKC does not include Whole Foods, Dave & Busters, Anthropologie, Wolfgang Puck Bistro, Hard Rock Casino/Hotel, Fossil, Saks Fifth Avenue, Fleming's Steakhouse.. I could go on.

1, nobody cares about Vans, 2 Apple and Cheesecake came to OKC/Tulsa at the same time. Lego store?

Forgot about this thread.  TulsaRufnex's logic is as laughable as ever.  Posting an OKCtalker's post stating that he's glad to have another poster named Oil Capital IN Oklahoma City is somehow supposed to prove that the OKCTalk "Oil Capital" is the same person as the TulsaNow Oil Capital (me) who is in Tulsa.  Your post actually rather proves the opposite of what you are attempting to prove.   Hilarious.