Vision 2 returns from the dead

[Teatownclown]

It might be worth a big thumbs up to OKC our sister city 100 miles away. Anyhow, City rivery always goes on- Dallas and Houston, Dallas and Fort Worth, every city working to out do it's neighbor city.

rivery....clever that term.

There wouldn't be if we learned that there were two sides to economic development. It pays to look good by creating jobs, but I'd take the 1960's size of our town over today. Again, quality over quantity is the future wave.

[Hoss]

BTW, he's using a Tulsa Public Library computer.  Unless he's more talented than I think, he's here.  He's just horribly misinformed or a good act.

I just want the proof.  Some of the things he says makes me wonder if he's locked in a time warp from the early eighties.  Most of you here have met me, so you know I live and work here.  Those of you I've not met I am pretty sure you live/work/reside here or at least in the vicinity by the things you say about local items.

Some of things he says are N-S-S moments...

[heironymouspasparagus]

If you limit the comparison to just Bricktown versus The Brady/Blue Dome, I agree with you that we are doing better than OKC.  The problem is that is not a very well known fact even in Tulsa, much less OKC or elsewhere.  The perception within the state and even nationally is that OKC is a city on the rise with a lot of vitality and energy – an image that gets reinforced through a youthful Thunder team that continues to exceed expectations.  Tulsa isn't on anyone's radar nationally and, to the extent it is thought about, it often isn't thought of particularly well. 

However, my point that we are behind OKC goes well beyond Bricktown or even downtown development strictly interpreted.  OKC is adding jobs and population at a faster rate than Tulsa.  When it comes to attracting new businesses, size matters and we are falling further and further behind OKC in that regard.  OKC's leaders are also continuing to push the MAPS program in a way that makes sense.  OKC is reaping the benefits of decisions and investments it made 15+ years ago, but it isn't resting on those successes.  To some extent, Tulsa is simply behind the curve because we got a later start.  My concern, however, as born out by the dreadful V2 proposal, is that Tulsa still lacks leaders that "get it" – leaders that fully understand why we've had the success we've had, how to capitalize on it and how to propel that momentum forward to create a unique and vibrant Tulsa.  Our private sector isn't much better.  Rather than seeking out ways to grow their business and invest in Tulsa with pride (like Devon and others have in OKC), too many of our business leaders spend their time shopping their companies to out-of-state bidders in order to cash out.  Tulsa's unemployment numbers may be ok, but our business and income base is seriously eroded from what it was just 10 years ago with fewer companies headquartered here.

Your friends' experiences upon moving here are encouraging and not surprising, but sadly one that is not occurring enough.  As the capitol and intersection of 3 major interstates highways, OKC has some advantages with which Tulsa cannot compete.  To a large extent, Tulsa will always play second fiddle to OKC in Oklahoma.  Nonetheless, Tulsa has some advantages over OKC that we have failed to appreciate and take advantage of over the past several decades.  Perhaps we are reawaking to our potential.  I hope so.  But for now we would do well to keep a clear headed eye on OKC for ideas and inspiration, as well as proof of what can be accomplished.

I would love to see someone put in a Top That along that I-35 strip at Moore.  I'm there enough that I could almost make them succeed by myself....

As for jobs - my direct experience is engineering/technology related and there is a lot of military stuff there (Tinker).  Devon and Chesapeake have been poaching a couple of companies I know of.  Climatemaster and their related ones are slowly adding some people and Johnson Controls had a sign hanging on their fence for several months saying "Now Hiring".  The people I have direct contact with are having a tougher time of it...several in addition to the previous mentioned are looking but really don't want to leave the area (family, etc).  Even they comment that they could have been in several positions if willing to relocate - either to Tulsa, Stillwater.  Technology is on a mild down slope in middle Oklahoma.

But as you mentioned, Tulsa has seen a bunch of people 'cashing out', too, so that slope may start here soon, too.

Can we "claim" Pryor as part of our sphere??  The industrial park seems to always have things happening...

i would take that second fiddle thing one step further and say we got the deck stacked against us by central Oklahoma.  Panhandle, west and southwest seem to identify more with OKC area - the local stations do their weather....just a small point that I think means something to people...brings them into the fold, so to speak.  OKC has this megalomaniacal thing going that lets them expand the city limits out to Tulsa's outskirts, so they seem to feel that the city extends to the Texas/Kansas border.  (Small exaggeration)   Yep, they have institutionalized advantages that we have to overcome.  Kind of surprises me sometimes at how well we have done in spite of those efforts to hold us back....it IS a conscious effort.

[sauerkraut]

OKC has some advantages over Tulsa in that the main interstate highways of Oklahoma City are free interstates- I-35 & I-40, Tulsa's  neighboring interstates are all toll roads. Another plus OKC has over Tulsa is that OKC is just 200 miles from the D/FW MetroPlex a straight drive down the toll free I-35 takes you into Texas and that makes it handy for business and companies who do business in Dallas and North Texas. Tulsa can't do nothing about that, but Tulsa  can work to make the city more attractive of a place to do business than in OKC.

[Teatownclown]

OKC has some advantages over Tulsa in that the main interstate highways of Oklahoma City are free interstates- I-35 & I-40, Tulsa's  neighboring interstates are all toll roads. Another plus OKC has over Tulsa is that OKC is just 200 miles from the D/FW MetroPlex a straight drive down the toll free I-35 takes you into Texas and that makes it handy for business and companies who do business in Dallas and North Texas. Tulsa can't do nothing about that, but Tulsa  can work to make the city more attractive of a place to do business than in OKC.

I don't think we can do anything to improve Tulsa as long as we have a mayor who lacks any ability to lead.

[sauerkraut]

I don't think we can do anything to improve Tulsa as long as we have a mayor who lacks any ability to lead.

Yep, Tulsa's mayor is no good I don't like him, but Tulsa still has to be progressive and keep taxes low and attract companies to the city. I think one big help would be if the state would make I-44 a free interstate from Joplin, Mo to OKC. That would be a step in the right direction. If the state Turnpike people  can survive by just getting rid of the tolls on that one turnpike I think it would do alot postive for commerce.

[Hoss]

Yep, Tulsa's mayor is no good I don't like him, but Tulsa still has to be progressive and keep taxes low and atract companies to the city. I think one big help would be if the state would make I-44 a free interstate from Joplin, Mo to OKC. That would be a step in the right direction. If the state Turnpike people  can survive by just getting rid of the tolls on that one turnpike I think it would do alot postive for commerce.

See my previous statement about taking revenue away from one source.  Has to be made up somewhere.  Else watch I-44 already crappy pavement turn to worse.

[AquaMan]

Why would the state end a turnpike whose revenues pay for its operation and maintenance? Surely you understand that without that revenue, your taxes would have to fill in the slack. The toll fees are mostly taxation that come from outside the state and have shown no negative effect on commerce between Joplin and OKC.

I can see how putting a moratorium on new toll ways might be defensible but not hacking away at existing sources without replacing that revenue.

Truly sad that they tried to tie river improvements to that last Vision 2. It seems the rest of the state has no interest in seeing us prosper. Curious too.

[sauerkraut]

See my previous statement about taking revenue away from one source.  Has to be made up somewhere.  Else watch I-44 already crappy pavement turn to worse.

It's only one  major toll interstate that I think should become a free road- not all the toll roads. OKC's two major interstate highways are free roads (I-35 & I-40) The growth in the economy and commerce will spur more income into the state to fund road repair, or heck raise gas taxes 1 cent... toll roads and higher fees/taxes do not help economic growth. Don't forget the biggest cost of any toll road is funding the labor- toll road workers, retirement packages, wages and the like. Those expenses will be gone if I-44 can become a free road. In the D/FW MetroPlex  I-30 the interstate that links Fort Worth to Dallas was once a toll road and in 1978 it was all paid off and it became a free road, In Oklahoma when a toll road  gets paid off it still does not become a free road they find other reasons to keep the toll roads. Truckers pay a ton of money in tolls and that cost gets passed along in the shipping costs that we all end up paying in the end.

[Red Arrow]

Truckers pay a ton of money in tolls and that cost gets passed along in the shipping costs that we all end up paying in the end.

And you can pretty much bet that the toll roads are cheaper overall than alternate routes or the truckers will take those alternate routes.

[AquaMan]

Truckers pay a ton of money in tolls and that cost gets passed along in the shipping costs that we all end up paying in the end.

Those tolls repair and maintain the roads the trucker's heavy loads damage. If they didn't pay those tolls the state would still exact a fee from them at weigh stations (which would require employees, billing systems etc.) or we/you as taxpayers would still pay in the end. I-35 is an interstate that has lots of access. The Turnpikes are limited access and generally easier and faster to drive so the average driver also benefits.

No one gets a free ride Sauer.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Then there is the issue of $1.3 billion in bonded indebtedness that would have to be paid off to make the roads "free".  They keep the debt level pretty constant so they can continue to justify their existence.  It is standard procedure for any "living" entity...and a bureaucracy is definitely that.  Survive and grow.  So, we will never see that debt gone, nor the roads made free.

Unless there is a grass roots effort to get the state constitution changed...something along that line happened many years ago, and the people who thought it was soooooo good to let "other people" pay for our roads for us won the day.  Idiots.