Raise the Minimum Wage

[carltonplace]

Gaspar: When you subsidize poverty and failure, you get more of both. – James Dale Davidson

Working a full time job is a symbol of failure? Paying the worker for their hours worked is subsidizing poverty?

I guess you've never sacked groceries or payed your way through college slinging whiskey.

[Red Arrow]

RED ARROW - Requesting fair compensation is not reallocation of wealth. These people are working for the money they are paid, they should be paid fairly for it.

Please define fair compensation. Seriously, what level of lifestyle should be the minimum for someone working 40 hrs/week regardless of any skills they bring to the workplace.  Some jobs are worth more than others. The money has to come from somewhere.

[Conan71]

Gaspar: When you subsidize poverty and failure, you get more of both. – James Dale Davidson

Working a full time job is a symbol of failure? Paying the worker for their hours worked is subsidizing poverty?

I guess you've never sacked groceries or payed your way through college slinging whiskey.

There's a difference though.  When I worked minimum wage jobs through HS and college, I was careful about other life choices to keep from getting bound into menial labor for a good portion of my life or ending up having to work several jobs to support a child and keep going to school.  I didn't knock anyone up before I was prepared to be a responsible parent and could support a family and never did anything to end up with a felony on my record.

A lot of things people call a personal "misfortune" are the result of poor choices.  Sounds cold and callous, but any one of us might be living a different life right now had we made a poor choice along the way.  I'm certainly not being critical of choices others have made, nor that there are vehicles to help them if they do have an "ooops".  

That said, I do have friends who overcame unplanned pregnancies and had a child in college or before who have gone on to become very successful professionals by bucking up, working a couple of jobs, and studying their butt off to reach their life goals.

[Gaspar]

Lets break this down. . .

Gaspar - RE: "permanent wage"
If these companies cared about their workers then we wouldn't need to enforce a minimum wage. The companies would pay per performance and would reward hard work with advancement. These things no longer exist.

If companies want to keep workers, they care about them.  If they want to attract workers, they compete for them.

I'm fairly sure that you understand that minimum wage jobs also rarely have any benefits package.

Would you suggest we mandate benefits too?  Why not free housing for workers, or groceries?

How does a single mother working 60+ hours a week to make ends meet find a way to care for her child and pay for an education?

Not by working a minimum wage job.  Again, someone willing to work extra hours to advance, will advance.  If she has that ambition to better herself, she will better herself.

Do we consider that she and her child are victims of their circumstances and not worthy or capable of more?

Absolutely not!  That is why you don't victimize them by building further dependence.

RED ARROW - Requesting fair compensation is not reallocation of wealth. These people are working for the money they are paid, they should be paid fairly for it.

I'll take this. . .Who decides what is "fair compensation?"  $32/hr seems even more "fair" don't you think?  If I am an employeer and I want someone to greet my customers at the door, perhaps I feel that $8.50 an hour is a fair wage for that person.  The employee establishes what is "fair," and if the employee disagrees he or she moves on.  Employers compete for good workers, and if the wages they pay cannot attract those willing to work for those wages, the employeer will be forced to increase them.

[Gaspar]

There's a difference though.  When I worked minimum wage jobs through HS and college, I was careful about other life choices to keep from getting bound into menial labor for a good portion of my life or ending up having to work several jobs to support a child and keep going to school.  I didn't knock anyone up before I was prepared to be a responsible parent and could support a family and never did anything to end up with a felony on my record.

A lot of things people call a personal "misfortune" are the result of poor choices.  Sounds cold and callous, but any one of us might be living a different life right now had we made a poor choice along the way.  I'm certainly not being critical of choices others have made, nor that there are vehicles to help them if they do have an "ooops".  

That said, I do have friends who overcame unplanned pregnancies and had a child in college or before who have gone on to become very successful professionals by bucking up, working a couple of jobs, and studying their butt off to reach their life goals.

My 7yo daughter has become a real whizz at math.  I help her with her homework and am amazed at how quickly she has picked up creative ways to solve complex problems.

We were driving to Best Buy after dinner the other night and she was working on her homework in the car.  As we pulled off at the 71st and 169 exit, I told her I was so proud of her for taking the initiative every night and doing her homework without anyone asking her.  Her response was priceless.  "Well, I don't want to be like that guy," pointing to the obese pan-handler just outside the car window.  She's only 7 and she understands the basics of life.  I'm sure she will face many adversities before she is an adult, but hopefully she too learns the importance and power of her choices.

[Teatownclown]

So, the panhandler lesson was only half told?

Innocent little girls don't need to be taught about the poor...they just need to know to avoid the situation.

Does she attend early childhood development classes?

[carltonplace]

Lets break this down. . .

If these companies cared about their workers then we wouldn't need to enforce a minimum wage. The companies would pay per performance and would reward hard work with advancement. These things no longer exist.

If companies want to keep workers, they care about them.  If they want to attract workers, they compete for them.

I'm fairly sure that you understand that minimum wage jobs also rarely have any benefits package.

Would you suggest we mandate benefits too?  Why not free housing for workers, or groceries? I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that the minimum wage should be raised.

How does a single mother working 60+ hours a week to make ends meet find a way to care for her child and pay for an education?

Not by working a minimum wage job.  Again, someone willing to work extra hours to advance, will advance.  If she has that ambition to better herself, she will better herself. Oh, I see; the people that work a job for 40 hours and more a week are not to be considered ambitious when that job pays minimum wage.

Do we consider that she and her child are victims of their circumstances and not worthy or capable of more?

Absolutely not!  That is why you don't victimize them by building further dependence. Paying a fair wage is not creating dependence.

RED ARROW - Requesting fair compensation is not reallocation of wealth. These people are working for the money they are paid, they should be paid fairly for it.

I'll take this. . .Who decides what is "fair compensation?"  $32/hr seems even more "fair" don't you think?  If I am an employeer and I want someone to greet my customers at the door, perhaps I feel that $8.50 an hour is a fair wage for that person.  The employee establishes what is "fair," and if the employee disagrees he or she moves on.  Employers compete for good workers, and if the wages they pay cannot attract those willing to work for those wages, the employeer will be forced to increase them. I'll play this game. Maybe $3.50 an hour is your idea of fair compensation for the following minimum wage jobs: Certified Nursing Assistant, Child Care Provider, EMT, Auto Service Tech...not all of these jobs are in the fast food window.

[nathanm]

I'm curious as to how this hypothetical single mother working full time is expected to pay for education on top of the costs of living? And when shall she go to school? I guess if you start off life with parents in the wrong income bracket, you gotta be a superstar or we'll write you off as a taker, even if you are working full time.

[Gaspar]

Ok Carltonplace, lets complete the equation.

I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that the minimum wage should be raised.

You are suggesting that the government mandate employers to pay a higher wage for entry level labor.  The proven consequence of this is a decrease in jobs, and an increase in the prices of goods and services.  Therefore, you are suggesting that we increase unemployment for low wage workers, and the cost of the goods and services they buy.

Oh, I see; the people that work a job for 40 hours and more a week are not to be considered ambitious when that job pays minimum wage.

People that work full time in any job (minimum wage or otherwise) will advance if they desire to.  If their employeer does not provide them with the opportunity for advancement, the desire will motivate them to seek other employment options.  In turn this encourages employers to be competitive for quality employees.

Paying a fair wage is not creating dependence.

The employee establishes what is "fair" not the government.  As an unintended consequence, the mandate for higher wages reduces opportunity and shrinks the size of the entry level work force.  The natural result is more of these workers finding themselves completely dependent on government assistance.

I'll play this game. Maybe $3.50 an hour is your idea of fair compensation for the following minimum wage jobs: Certified Nursing Assistant, Child Care Provider, EMT, Auto Service Tech...not all of these jobs are in the fast food window.

If an employeer can advertise a $3.50 an hour position for a Certified Nursing Assistant, Child Care Provider, EMT, Auto Service Tech, and a worker is willing to accept that, then the wage is obviously fair, because the exchange of service for wage is voluntary.  I however doubt that you would find such a worker.  Again, the fairness of the wage is not determined by the employeer, but by the employee.

[Red Arrow]

I'm curious as to how this hypothetical single mother working full time is expected to pay for education on top of the costs of living? And when shall she go to school? I guess if you start off life with parents in the wrong income bracket, you gotta be a superstar or we'll write you off as a taker, even if you are working full time.

Look through here.  Maybe you can find something to help.
http://www.tulsacc.edu/finaid

[nathanm]

Look through here.  Maybe you can find something to help.
http://www.tulsacc.edu/finaid

You're assuming that they are eligible for financial aid, which may not be the case. Perhaps, as several people I have known have, they are under 26 and have parents who have substantial financial resources. Or perhaps they have a past drug conviction. Besides, who's going to pay for more child care?

There are many roadblocks that might not be apparent from a distance.

[Teatownclown]

there's a learning lesson here.....

[heironymouspasparagus]

Good politicians are hard to spot.  Here's a hint:  Look for the person who promises the least.

[/color]

Well, Jim Inhofe is the least promising...does that count?

[Red Arrow]

You're assuming that they are eligible for financial aid, which may not be the case. Perhaps, as several people I have known have, they are under 26 and have parents who have substantial financial resources.

I have heard of young adults with non-helping parents getting financial aid.  It may have taken some kind of legal "separation".   I never dug into the details.  

Or perhaps they have a past drug conviction.

I don't know where to draw the line on criminal convictions regarding financial aid.  Drug laws in particular are a mess in my opinion.  I'm sure there will always be a case where someone won't be eligible for financial aid.  I am curious of the percentage that would use it if only they hadn't had "that conviction".

Besides, who's going to pay for more child care?

Legitimate question.  It certainly won't be answered without looking.

There are many roadblocks that might not be apparent from a distance.

Also a legitimate statement.  Sometimes we erect roadblocks for ourselves rather than trying to solve them.

I know this is a children's book but it's an attitude that seems to be missing in modern USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Engine_That_Could

[Red Arrow]

the following minimum wage jobs: Certified Nursing Assistant, Child Care Provider, EMT, Auto Service Tech...not all of these jobs are in the fast food window.

Certified Nursing Assistant, Child Care Provider, EMT, Auto Service Tech:

http://www.indeed.com/salary/Certified-Nursing-Assistant.html

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/personal-care-and-service/childcare-workers.htm

http://www1.salary.com/Emergency-Medical-Technician-Salary.html

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/installation-maintenance-and-repair/automotive-service-technicians-and-mechanics.htm