Raise the Minimum Wage

[heironymouspasparagus]

You can always tell when he starts parsing things up line by line he knows that he is making an argument that has been proven false for decades or longer.  It is the old familiar syndrome of "if you can't blind them with brilliance (or at least some truth), then baffle them with BS."  Every single point regarding all the "bad" things that happen when you raise the minimum wage are not only false, but actually the opposite of the reality!

[Gaspar]

You can always tell when he starts parsing things up line by line he knows that he is making an argument that has been proven false for decades or longer.  It is the old familiar syndrome of "if you can't blind them with brilliance (or at least some truth), then baffle them with BS."  Every single point regarding all the "bad" things that happen when you raise the minimum wage are not only false, but actually the opposite of the reality!

That's interesting, because there are decades of evidence to the contrary, presented by economists.  There however is no evidence to the contrary that government mandated wage increases correlate with increased opportunity for entry level or unskilled workers.

Typically when we need to break apart your, or Carlton's remarks and address them line by line, it is because each line contains some claim or fallacy that requires debunking.  This is typical with emotional responses to logical dilemmas. 

The market dictates the levels for wages, that is a fact.  More precisely, the worker dictates the wage level that he or she is willing to accept.  This is not rocket science, it's the most basic of economics.  If an employeer advertises five $7.25 an hour window cleaning jobs, and gets 5 applicants who want to work for $7.25 an hour, they enter into a mutual agreement that $7.25 is a good wage for that job.  If he gets no applicants for the job, he may choose to advertise those jobs at $8.25 an hour.  The workers have just communicated that $7.25 is an inadequate wage for window washing, and the employer has agreed.  If the government steps in and says "you must pay $9.00 an hour," and the employeer either cannot bare that level or raise his prices to compensate for it, he will likely find other ways to accomplish the task, or perhaps simply expand the responsibilities of his existing staff to cover the regular cleaning of the windows.

The emotional response is to look at the employeer and conclude that because he makes a profit from his labor force, the worker has a right to part of that profit above what workers and the employeer have mutually agreed to.  They view it as the duty of government to determine what is "fare."  Unfortunately for the workers, the government cannot mandate that the employeer maintain any specific number of workers or that he limit the prices he charges for his goods or services.  Therefore, when government expands the employers labor expenses, his prices will need to expand or his labor force will need to contract. 

It's not that those who demand government mandated wage controls don't understand the mechanism, they do.  It's that those who promote government mandated wage controls do so for the very powerful political advantage it affords them.  Low wage workers, are typically unexperienced, young, or in many cases of lower educational levels, that this makes them prone to vote for largess from government without understanding or caring how that act will reduce their ability to progress and grow economically or how it may threaten the very jobs they rely on. 

It is a simple case of the politically ambitious using the emotional to take advantage of the irrational.

[Teatownclown]

OOPS: GOP Rep. Inadvertently Makes The Case For Nearly Doubling The Minimum Wage

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/02/14/1596051/blackburn-minimum-wage-oops/

[Conan71]

You're assuming that they are eligible for financial aid, which may not be the case. Perhaps, as several people I have known have, they are under 26 and have parents who have substantial financial resources. Or perhaps they have a past drug conviction. Besides, who's going to pay for more child care?

There are many roadblocks that might not be apparent from a distance.

A strong survival instinct and a real desire to succeed is all it takes.

You can either be controlled by your circumstances or choose to control your circumstances.  If I had chosen to allow my circumstances to control me, I'd probably still be earning minimum wage collecting on payday loans.

[heironymouspasparagus]

That's interesting, because there are decades of evidence to the contrary, presented by economists.  There however is no evidence to the contrary that government mandated wage increases correlate with increased opportunity for entry level or unskilled workers.

Decades of Faux News is the only contrary evidence.  And even they admit they are not serious news - they are only "entertainment".

[nathanm]

A strong survival instinct and a real desire to succeed is all it takes.

You can either be controlled by your circumstances or choose to control your circumstances.  If I had chosen to allow my circumstances to control me, I'd probably still be earning minimum wage collecting on payday loans.

In other words, if you're born to the wrong people, you'd better be a superstar or we'll blame you for your circumstances and call you a deadbeat even if you're working full time.

[Red Arrow]

In other words, if you're born to the wrong people, you'd better be a superstar or we'll blame you for your circumstances and call you a deadbeat even if you're working full time.

your life is predetermined and hopeless. There is nothing you can do about it.  Accept that you will remain uneducated, poor, and living in public housing or a slum with several kids looking for a handout forever.  Be sure to teach this to your kids so they won't attempt to better themselves.

FIFY

[Red Arrow]

If I had chosen to allow my circumstances to control me, I'd probably still be earning minimum wage collecting on payday loans.

I think you would have been happier driving the gas truck at RVS (or was that Hoss?).

[nathanm]

your life is predetermined and hopeless. There is nothing you can do about it.  Accept that you will remain uneducated, poor, and living in public housing or a slum with several kids looking for a handout forever.  Be sure to teach this to your kids so they won't attempt to better themselves.

FIFY

If you think increasing poverty and a middle class slowly falling behind is caused by lazy parents telling their kids they won't amount to anything, I don't know what to tell you. This isn't only happening among a small part of our society. There is clearly a systemic problem here.

[Conan71]

your life is predetermined and hopeless. There is nothing you can do about it.  Accept that you will remain uneducated, poor, and living in public housing or a slum with several kids looking for a handout forever.  Be sure to teach this to your kids so they won't attempt to better themselves.

FIFY

I couldn't have FIFY'd better myself. 

[Conan71]

If you think increasing poverty and a middle class slowly falling behind is caused by lazy parents telling their kids they won't amount to anything, I don't know what to tell you. This isn't only happening among a small part of our society. There is clearly a systemic problem here.

Poverty pimps, politicians, and community activists (or organizers) telling people their place in life is hopeless because "the man" has his foot on their head does not help.  People somehow keep believing the government is going to come in like a big genie and level the playing field.  Sounds great to someone who thinks wrongly they cannot change their circumstances.  I'd still be waiting if I had believed someone else was responsible for my success or lack thereof.

I know too many people who have nutted up and done whatever it took to get ahead to believe success exists only as some form of spontaneous combustion or that you have to be born into it.  All it takes is a belief in yourself.   

[Red Arrow]

If you think increasing poverty and a middle class slowly falling behind is caused by lazy parents telling their kids they won't amount to anything, I don't know what to tell you. This isn't only happening among a small part of our society. There is clearly a systemic problem here.

I am more optimistic than that.  I don't believe it takes a superperson to overcome a bad start.  I "fixed it" that way because the message you send is one of hopelessness and despair.  You can say roadblocks and other obstacles all you want but the message I get from your posts is that no one can change their position in life.

[Teatownclown]

  People somehow keep believing the government is going to come in like a big genie and level the playing field. 
All it takes is a belief in yourself.   

and big breaks, luck, and an education (yes, government run....)

[Red Arrow]

and big breaks, luck, and an education (yes, government run....)

Got it....

The government waves its magic wand and everyone gets ahead.  No personal initiative involved. No work or effort required. Abbra Kadrabra.. You are a WINNER.

[nathanm]

You can say roadblocks and other obstacles all you want but the message I get from your posts is that no one can change their position in life.

Sorry, the message I intend to send is that many people cannot or will not (despite significant effort) change their position in life. Many people can, although fewer here manage it here than in France, Spain, and Canada, among other places. More than places like Mexico and Brazil, though. Those people are still people. You can't make policy based on the exceptions. What do we do about the people who do indeed attempt to improve their circumstances but find it impossible for them?

Part of the problem is that getting an associate's degree typically does not increase earning power as much as the student loan debt costs, and dropout rates are very high among nontraditional students in four year programs (but are quite respectable in two year programs). Clearly, figuring out what it is that keeps people from finishing their education and helping them with that is an important component of any solution. Otherwise they just get themselves a bunch of debt they can't get rid of with nothing to show for it except more people calling about unpaid bills.