Oklahoma Joes Fundraiser Kerfuffle

[Stanley1]

They have every right to do exactly what they did.

And let's not act like this was some long standing obligation.  The article reads as if this entire thing came together in less than a month.  That group can put together another "dinner", in a couple of weeks, at a restaurant that shares their beliefs.  Sucks it had to play out how it did, but that's life.  Sometimes things don't happen smoothly.

As for the kids, let's PLEASE not act like this is just so devastating to them.  First, that group will make the money somehow, and the kids will get to attend.  Secondly.....science camp?  I wouldn't exactly call that something that every child is entitled to.

[Red Arrow]

Topped it off with a nice Tank 7 or three (wife was driving).

I hope your wife was driving. Tank 7 is 8.5% ABV.  (I just happen to have an empty bottle in the "to be recycled" area.)

[DolfanBob]

I certainly hope that it's a Camp for Adult "kids" Did you read their response and profanity laced rant?

One of the Managers dropped the ball by not being able to decipher the innuendo's written clearly, as to not fully disclose the non Christian beliefs that this camp is about. (not that there's anything wrong with that)

Meh! Not that 10% percent of a two to three hour event is going to make all that much differance, in little Timmy learning how dirt grows flowers.

Also. If you find yourself up 71st at 225th E Av. Swing in "Smokies" BBQ "It's good stuff Maynard"

[guido911]

The more I follow this, the more contrived this whole thing seems to me. Go to Camp Quest websites, and compare the messages there to what was actually stated in the Joes' flyer. I do not see the word "atheist" or "agnostic" anywhere. Why not include it? Only "free thought" and "natural wonder". Wow, that sounds appealing to me, because who doesn't support those descriptions. This is from the "history" page:

Camp Quest was founded in 1996 by a small group of dedicated and energetic people with the Free Inquiry Group of Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky. Edwin and Helen Kagin, Ed McAndrews, Elizabeth Oldiges, Nikki Orlemann, and David Scheidt served as members of the original Camp Quest planning committee, with Vern Uchtman as chairperson.

The idea to offer a summer camp program designed for children from atheist, agnostic, humanist, and other freethinking families originated partially in response to the Boy Scouts of America's increasing enforcement of their policy requiring boys to profess a belief in God.  It became clear that children from nontheistic families needed their own place to belong and enjoy the summer camp experience

http://www.campquest.org/history

Has anyone said that Joes knew this about CQ before agreeing to sponsor the event? And about this fundraiser, if I happened to eat there that night, would part of my purchase be used to support that organization? And how am I to be protected from supporting that outfit which plainly contravenes my belief system? IF, and I mean IF, Oklahoma Joes did not know this before hand, how can anyone fault them for backing out? Grizz is right, if Joes should be faulted, it's because it did not perform due diligence. And besides, could you imagine being a worker at Joes, Christian, Jew or whatever, and hearing, "Hey kids, come to our camp because there is no God"?

And what about Mardel's or Hobbt Lobby, or St. Francis Hospital, should they be required to hold fundraisers for CQ if asked? There are far too many open-ended issues here, but I guess since it involves a Christian place...

And here is a link to some folks offering to help out CQ.
http://www.stiefelfreethoughtfoundation.org/about.html

[guido911]

I certainly hope that it's a Camp for Adult "kids" Did you read their response and profanity laced rant?

Can you link that?

[DolfanBob]

Can you link that?

It's one of the links already posted on here.

Opps. I'm sorry. It's not their website. Must be one of the followers who took it quite personally.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2013/04/camp-quest-oklahoma-kicked-out-of-their-own-fundraiser-by-christian-business-owner/

[BKDotCom]

And about this fundraiser, if I happened to eat there that night, would part of my purchase be used to support that organization?

No.. It was only if you showed the flyer to the cashier.
Sorta like how like if you show your church bulletin to many restaurants on Sunday, that restaurant will supposedly donate 10% to that church.

[Vashta Nerada]

And what about Mardel's or Hobbt Lobby, or St. Francis Hospital, should they be required to hold fundraisers for CQ if asked?

There's quite a leap from "agreed to" and "required."

[RecycleMichael]

The more I follow this, the more contrived this whole thing seems to me.

I did not know you were a truther.

[guido911]

There's quite a leap from "agreed to" and "required."

Oh I agree with the distinction. Some people are claiming constitutional violations, which to me implies a certain action be taken (or else).

[custosnox]

The more I follow this, the more contrived this whole thing seems to me. Go to Camp Quest websites, and compare the messages there to what was actually stated in the Joes' flyer. I do not see the word "atheist" or "agnostic" anywhere. Why not include it? Only "free thought" and "natural wonder". Wow, that sounds appealing to me, because who doesn't support those descriptions. This is from the "history" page:

http://www.campquest.org/history

Has anyone said that Joes knew this about CQ before agreeing to sponsor the event? And about this fundraiser, if I happened to eat there that night, would part of my purchase be used to support that organization? And how am I to be protected from supporting that outfit which plainly contravenes my belief system? IF, and I mean IF, Oklahoma Joes did not know this before hand, how can anyone fault them for backing out? Grizz is right, if Joes should be faulted, it's because it did not perform due diligence. And besides, could you imagine being a worker at Joes, Christian, Jew or whatever, and hearing, "Hey kids, come to our camp because there is no God"?

And what about Mardel's or Hobbt Lobby, or St. Francis Hospital, should they be required to hold fundraisers for CQ if asked? There are far too many open-ended issues here, but I guess since it involves a Christian place...

And here is a link to some folks offering to help out CQ.
http://www.stiefelfreethoughtfoundation.org/about.html

You fail to understand the distinction here, it is not an atheist camp.  It is a science camp, and encourages free thought and humanistic values, which are not religious or nonreligious specific.  These are ideas that are shared on both sides of the line.  It's not about saying "hey, there's no god."  Granted, the whole concept was brought about to give kids an alternative to all of these "let me shove my beliefs down your throat" Christian camps, but it's not about pushing any religious or anti-religious dogma.  And yes, Joe's was fully informed on what the camp was, they received a brochure and full disclosure on the camp.  His decision to break his deal had absolutely nothing to do with the camp, but the fact that he found out that horrible, horrible atheists, oh no, were involved in it.  Run for the hills and lock up the kids, the atheists have arrived.  So you tell me, is it legally acceptable for someone to break an agreement with you, costing you money, time, and materials, simply because they find out you are Catholic?  Or do you make it clear to everyone you do business with that you are Catholic before doing so?

[guido911]

You fail to understand the distinction here, it is not an atheist camp.  It is a science camp, and encourages free thought and humanistic values, which are not religious or nonreligious specific.  These are ideas that are shared on both sides of the line.  It's not about saying "hey, there's no god."  Granted, the whole concept was brought about to give kids an alternative to all of these "let me shove my beliefs down your throat" Christian camps, but it's not about pushing any religious or anti-religious dogma.  And yes, Joe's was fully informed on what the camp was, they received a brochure and full disclosure on the camp.  His decision to break his deal had absolutely nothing to do with the camp, but the fact that he found out that horrible, horrible atheists, oh no, were involved in it.  Run for the hills and lock up the kids, the atheists have arrived.  So you tell me, is it legally acceptable for someone to break an agreement with you, costing you money, time, and materials, simply because they find out you are Catholic?  Or do you make it clear to everyone you do business with that you are Catholic before doing so?

Can you link to the brochure you said Joes had? I would like to see it.

Oh I understand completely what is going on, and have some problems with Joes' due diligence. If it was given a brochure and they didn't read it, okay. But I read the flyer; did you? Did you see the word atheist or agnostic? Did you? If no, why not. If CQ is all about being up front, why didn't they announce for all of Oklahoma and Joes' patrons to see right on the damned flyer? I will tell you, because this is Oklahoma and that would turn people off.  These people called themselves anything BUT what they truly are and opted for the ol' euphemism. Bait and switch and misleading/misdirection. If I went into Joes that night and saw that flyer, would I have any idea that at the root of their group was to be a foil for groups like the Boy Scouts? Nope. They kinda left that language out of the damned flyer as well. What pisses me off is if I went in there and spent money, and later found out a portion of it went to CQ, I would be screaming at someone.

Joes' ultimate decision, though, I have no problem with. If Joes said "FU" to the group BEFORE agreeing to host the event--would you even know about it or asked why? This whole thing is another way for some group of people to b!tch about someone being Christian and unbelievably living up to their principles. This is Oklahoma, and it is largely Christian.

As for personalizing it, if I went to Joes and said "I am Catholic and want to raise money to send a group of kids on a mission trip to Jamaica to build homes", and they said NO, "because you are Catholic". I would just freakin move on. It's their business, and Joes is under ZERO obligation to do anything to help me or my causes. If I am out some commitment capital, okay. I'll moan. But sheesh, the whole "I'm going to boycott Joes over this" bullsh!t is just noise.

Here's a news story on this event.

http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Broken-Arrow-business-says-faith-gets-in-the-way/vAcwMQrIzUCFekpYFVA8xA.cspx

[custosnox]

Can you link to the brochure you said Joes had? I would like to see it.

Oh I understand completely what is going on, and have some problems with Joes' due diligence. If it was given a brochure and they didn't read it, okay. But I read the flyer; did you? Did you see the word atheist or agnostic? Did you? If no, why not. If CQ is all about being up front, why didn't they announce for all of Oklahoma and Joes' patrons to see right on the damned flyer? I will tell you, because this is Oklahoma and that would turn people off.  These people called themselves anything BUT what they truly are and opted for the ol' euphemism. Bait and switch and misleading/misdirection. If I went into Joes that night and saw that flyer, would I have any idea that at the root of their group was to be a foil for groups like the Boy Scouts? Nope. They kinda left that language out of the damned flyer as well. What pisses me off is if I went in there and spent money, and later found out a portion of it went to CQ, I would be screaming at someone.

Joes' ultimate decision, though, I have no problem with. If Joes said "FU" to the group BEFORE agreeing to host the event--would you even know about it or asked why? This whole thing is another way for some group of people to b!tch about someone being Christian and unbelievably living up to their principles. This is Oklahoma, and it is largely Christian.

As for personalizing it, if I went to Joes and said "I am Catholic and want to raise money to send a group of kids on a mission trip to Jamaica to build homes", and they said NO, "because you are Catholic". I would just freakin move on. It's their business, and Joes is under ZERO obligation to do anything to help me or my causes. If I am out some commitment capital, okay. I'll moan. But sheesh, the whole "I'm going to boycott Joes over this" bullsh!t is just noise.

Here's a news story on this event.

http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Broken-Arrow-business-says-faith-gets-in-the-way/vAcwMQrIzUCFekpYFVA8xA.cspx

Obviously you still don't understand, IT IS NOT AN ATHEIST CAMP, and stop with the whole agnostic crap, you don't want to get me started on that misuse of a term.  It has nothing to do with turning kids into good little atheists, or trying to get them to affirm their disbelief in deities, it's simply a science camp with a focus for kids to develop critical thinking and learn some humanistic values (you know, be good to your fellow man kind of thing).  They kicked them out AFTER agreeing to let them host the fundraiser because they found out some of the supporters were atheist.  If you really want to know what the camp is, I'll share a little story about a woman who is sending her kid to the camp:

"I just need to say that tonight as I was tucking my 10yr old into bed, completely unaware of the OK Joes BBQ stuff that was happening, she and I chatted for a long while. We were very excited to talk about Camp Quest, which she will be attending this year. She had asked to go to an away camp for the first time and I was so happy to have found a non-religious camp for her. I was explaining to her how the camp is open to all kids, of any religion, race, etc. We talked about the value of diversity and how wonderful it is! I explained that at Camp Quest, she will not be told what to think, and that her own thoughts and feelings will be treated with respect and with as much value as every other child at camp. We talked about respecting the differences in others, that there must be hundreds of thousands of belief systems among people, and how it is important for us to be tolerant of other's freedom to believe as they choose. We talked about many other things related to this. Later I learned of the incident at OK Joes BBQ. I am very sad that this has happened. I feel angry, anxious, and so much more... Lets hope that the kids going to camp do not experience any fallout from this thing. "

And as far as the brochure, I've got some here, but I don't know of any that are online.  And no, they don't talk about atheism, because, once again, that's not what it's about.

[sgrizzle]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/atheist-summer-camp-heaven-earth-nonbelievers/story?id=17067039#.UWVnFzeJnTo

Located just north of Seattle, Camp Quest Northwest is a summer camp for atheists or children of atheists, self-described "freethinkers" or people not otherwise traditionally religious.

The camp hosts different sessions, such as the Socrates Cafe, where campers are free to discuss anything on their minds, from the age-old question of "where do we come from?" to how to handle bullies who pick on them because of their agnostic beliefs.

At Camp Quest, religion, in some form, is often a topic of discussion, but here they believe more in talking about evolution and logic. They think critically and question everything, and they don't believe in God.

[DolfanBob]

The woman representing the camp said on the news last night. That it was Joes wife that signed off on the flyer.