Isn't it time..

[Townsend]

Must...resist..urge...Okay, I cannot. AM is right. Also, I cannot stand looking at a damned sand bar where, I thought, the Arkansas "river" is supposed to be. It looks like crap down this way.

I don't think the river would look much different down our way.  It'd still drain away just as fast. 

That's the reasoning behind the Southie Dam.

[swake]

Nonsense. There is one person there who lied and deceived others eventually costing me dearly. It didn't keep me from supporting the last two river development issues nor has it kept me from speaking to that person when we cross paths.

I give them credit when its due and criticism when its deserved. Authorities in general suck and don't earn their keep as downtown supporters found out.

Address the issues I've raised if you can. No one denies the condition of the lake and the dam. Its not entirely the RPA's fault that funding isn't adequate. Yes, they still deceive the public, the press and their donors, but its the city that needs to decide just how much river they want. So far not much.

So the idiots that cliff dive at Tenkiller where it's marked that it's not safe to. Some of them die. Do you think we should dynamite the cliffs to keep them from being able to hurt themselves?

[Conan71]

You know, I've made too big a deal out of this already. I don't expect that anyone will agree with me that it needs to go. That would be a huge event that most politicians wouldn't want to touch. I would rather see it improved or fixed. Mostly I just wanted to make a stab at saying what others may be afraid to say and to stimulate some conversation about the irony of complaining about bad roads, bad bridges and bad government while a good example stares at us each day. We can do better.

Take a deep breath and exhale Aqua. 

Regardless with what the LWD is replaced with, there are always going to be people who either believe they are above the laws of physics, who have too much belief in their own abilities, or who simply don't respect warning lights, warning signs, and obvious dangers taught them by their parents and or peers.  The dam didn't force anyone into the water yesterday morning.  Poor judgement led to this pure and simple.

Sorry to say, there will always be drownings in the Arkansas river along the Tulsa stretch with or without this LWD or a "safer" replacement. 

[Conan71]

So the idiots that cliff dive at Tenkiller where it's marked that it's not safe to. Some of them die. Do you think we should dynamite the cliffs to keep them from being able to hurt themselves?

Careful Swake, you are starting to sound like a heartless teabagger.

[rdj]

Maybe this is the ticket to getting the populous to fund the improvements?  Safety!  For the students!

This fact has been in the pitch the last two river development packages but maybe it should be a larger point next time.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I'm not so sure about the brains.

Or proportionally, the brawn...

[heironymouspasparagus]

Must...resist..urge...Okay, I cannot. AM is right. Also, I cannot stand looking at a damned sand bar where, I thought, the Arkansas "river" is supposed to be. It looks like crap down this way.

You are the "poster child" for what I have said in the past about people moving to an area because of the perceived ambiance, and bringing their carp with them that messes it up.  The Arkansas for at least hundreds of thousands of years has been exactly what you see - sand bars for the vast majority of the year.  Just gotta wonder how you got to the point where the natural order of things "looks like crap down this way"...??  That is the mind set that made Las Vegas into the water wonderland it is today!


Yeah, I know....progress...jobs...economic activity...development...blah...blah...blah...

Keystone has made tremendous reductions in flood damage to Tulsa, 'cause we just couldn't bear the idea of NOT developing in a flood plain...and look at what a nice big mud-hole that has become.  Needs to be dredged - soon!  And we cast aspersions on New Orleans...yeah, right..!!  At least they had the excuse that it began before the place was below sea level...and the river diversions and oil removal destroyed the delta protecting the area from inundation.  What is our excuse again?

[AquaMan]

So the idiots that cliff dive at Tenkiller where it's marked that it's not safe to. Some of them die. Do you think we should dynamite the cliffs to keep them from being able to hurt themselves?

That's kind of ridiculous. No, that's just plain silly. You are missing the points entirely.

[AquaMan]

Take a deep breath and exhale Aqua. 

Regardless with what the LWD is replaced with, there are always going to be people who either believe they are above the laws of physics, who have too much belief in their own abilities, or who simply don't respect warning lights, warning signs, and obvious dangers taught them by their parents and or peers.  The dam didn't force anyone into the water yesterday morning.  Poor judgement led to this pure and simple.

Sorry to say, there will always be drownings in the Arkansas river along the Tulsa stretch with or without this LWD or a "safer" replacement. 

It was very rare to hear of drownings on this river before the LWDs. They mostly occurred when the river flooded and kids tried to float on rafts and logs and stuff. 14 documented by TW since 83' but that doesn't include the upstream and downstream deaths or the bodies that mysteriously showed up with pre-existing wounds. I believe SS had nearly two dozen.

I am doomed to be out of synch, controversial and misunderstood by my peers. Yoga may in fact be the answer.

[AquaMan]

Maybe this is the ticket to getting the populous to fund the improvements?  Safety!  For the students!

This fact has been in the pitch the last two river development packages but maybe it should be a larger point next time.

I hope that it raises awareness and spurs action of some sort. Either fix it, improve it or face facts that its an attractive nuisance we'll have to deal with for decades. The area these guys were noodling was scheduled (and may still be) for destruction had the white water park materialized. The dam proposed would have stair stepped on the downstream side to eliminate undertow.

Unlike cliffs at Tenkiller, we built this dam and are responsible for its operation. Swimming pools may have signs that say private property, danger, etc. but insurance companies will balk at covering them unless you make efforts to limit access by strangers.

[AquaMan]

You are the "poster child" for what I have said in the past about people moving to an area because of the perceived ambiance, and bringing their carp with them that messes it up.  The Arkansas for at least hundreds of thousands of years has been exactly what you see - sand bars for the vast majority of the year.  Just gotta wonder how you got to the point where the natural order of things "looks like crap down this way"...??  That is the mind set that made Las Vegas into the water wonderland it is today!


Yeah, I know....progress...jobs...economic activity...development...blah...blah...blah...

Keystone has made tremendous reductions in flood damage to Tulsa, 'cause we just couldn't bear the idea of NOT developing in a flood plain...and look at what a nice big mud-hole that has become.  Needs to be dredged - soon!  And we cast aspersions on New Orleans...yeah, right..!!  At least they had the excuse that it began before the place was below sea level...and the river diversions and oil removal destroyed the delta protecting the area from inundation.  What is our excuse again?

Yeah, don't be too hard on him. My wife feels the same way. She's from the land of a thousand lakes, Minnesota, where rivers are rivers and men are named Olaf. She doesn't understand or appreciate Prairie Rivers. There has to be compromise.

Our big mistake was made back when they put the first bridge over the river. Immediately the land adjacent to the river was built upon instead of making a buffer of several hundred yards either side of it. That decision was economic plain and simple. Refineries needed a place to dump stuff, workers needed to live near the refineries and the population was exploding. Just go up on one of the surrounding hills and you see the whole area is a valley waiting to be filled with water. We filled it with housing.

[swake]

Unlike cliffs at Tenkiller, we built this dam and are responsible for its operation.

We didn't build the cliffs, but we certainly built the lake. In both cases people are taking stupid risks in a artificially created dangerous area against posted warnings. In one you want to remove dangerous but popular dams. In the other you find it silly to advocate to remove the dangerous but popular cliffs? Maybe we just remove the Tenkiller dam, would that make more sense? If the lake is drained no one will cliff dive into the water.

[rebound]

You are the "poster child" for what I have said in the past about people moving to an area because of the perceived ambiance, and bringing their carp with them that messes it up. 

I didn't include the whole quote above to keep things compact, but you seem to be making a much broader argument against even the Keystone dam, and/or dams in general, and by extension an argument against any improvements to the natural landscape that would make it more usable, easier, and/or more enjoyable by people.  This broader argument won't be won, and there is too much history against it.  To varying degrees, humans have been adapting the environment since the beginning of civilization.

Understand though, that I'm a member of Trout Unlimited and have supported demolishing dams in the Pacific NW that were no longer needed and disrupted Salmon runs.  And I'm a past long-term member of Ducks Unlimited and contributed to rebuilding the wetlands back in the '70s and '80s.  So while I get the whole "leave it as nature intended" argument, it's not feasible to apply the sentiment to the extreme.  Is Keystone dam a net negative?  I don't think so, and any talk against the dam will simply confuse the discussion.

Having said that, the discussion around the LWD is valid, if (IMHO) misguided.  Don't take it out, fix it or improve it.  And I know this is a well-trodden discussion topic, but rather than retreat (destroy the dam), this type of issue should spur Tulsa to finally move to address getting a "real" dam in place that would - along with the Gathering Place and other recent improvements along the river - create an amazing setting for recreational activity and economic growth.

Again, it's an old topic, but just Google images for "Austin town lake" and see what we could easily have here in Tulsa...

[AquaMan]

We didn't build the cliffs, but we certainly built the lake. In both cases people are taking stupid risks in a artificially created dangerous area against posted warnings. In one you want to remove dangerous but popular dams. In the other you find it silly to advocate to remove the dangerous but popular cliffs? Maybe we just remove the Tenkiller dam, would that make more sense? If the lake is drained no one will cliff dive into the water.

That's weird thinking and certainly miles away from my points. But, if it gives you some inner balance....

[AquaMan]

I didn't include the whole quote above to keep things compact, but you seem to be making a much broader argument against even the Keystone dam, and/or dams in general, and by extension an argument against any improvements to the natural landscape that would make it more usable, easier, and/or more enjoyable by people.  This broader argument won't be won, and there is too much history against it.  To varying degrees, humans have been adapting the environment since the beginning of civilization.

Understand though, that I'm a member of Trout Unlimited and have supported demolishing dams in the Pacific NW that were no longer needed and disrupted Salmon runs.  And I'm a past long-term member of Ducks Unlimited and contributed to rebuilding the wetlands back in the '70s and '80s.  So while I get the whole "leave it as nature intended" argument, it's not feasible to apply the sentiment to the extreme.  Is Keystone dam a net negative?  I don't think so, and any talk against the dam will simply confuse the discussion.

Having said that, the discussion around the LWD is valid, if (IMHO) misguided.  Don't take it out, fix it or improve it.  And I know this is a well-trodden discussion topic, but rather than retreat (destroy the dam), this type of issue should spur Tulsa to finally move to address getting a "real" dam in place that would - along with the Gathering Place and other recent improvements along the river - create an amazing setting for recreational activity and economic growth.

Again, it's an old topic, but just Google images for "Austin town lake" and see what we could easily have here in Tulsa...

Yet, sometimes you have to threaten a divorce just to get the other's attention. And, you have to mean it.