Is it Illegal to be in a bar and drinking with an expired Drivers License?

[tulsacan]

After scouring everything related to the issue under title 37, it appears ABLE was created to uphold the laws of the State regarding intoxicating beverages, it was not created or given the power to make laws. An issue that has been argued  and upheld in appeals, etc....  This case here http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=42469 is a good read, it refers to a package store that sold to a minor, the state agreed ABLE over stepped its boundaries, you can read the specifics to that case there.  While it doesn't directly pertain to the issue we are talking about, it shows that ABLE is not infallible.... it is actually a very good read, I couldn't stop smiling while reading it.

After going through all the sections of Title 37 it can only be assumed the spirit of the laws were intended to keep alcohol from minors, not as much as splitting hairs about how that age was determined. 

The part of the law about not selling to minors was quoted above, so I won't re-quote that again.  But under Section 537 - Unlawful Acts it says...

A. No person shall:
1. Knowingly sell, deliver, or furnish alcoholic beverages to any person under twenty-one (21) years of age;

Later when reading more case laws and interpretations on the subject you realize KNOWINGLY becomes a big issue.  Nothing ever mentioned it being illegal or unlawful to knowingly sell alcohol to someone who is over 21....

Pulling a few points listed in the case I listed above I found...

¶14 Responsibility rests on the licensee to determine the age of the customer, but there must be some reasonable standard of diligence to bound his inquiry. Trader Jon, Inc. v. State Beverage Department, 119 So.2d 735 (Fla.App. 1960).

¶15 Although a licensee is not an insurer against minors acquiring alcoholic beverages through fraud and misrepresentation, he may not ignore the obvious and in an ostrich-like manner repudiate his responsibility.

¶16 The reasonable man rule must be applied. See 5501 Hollywood v. Department of Alcoholic Bev. Con., 155 Cal. App.2d 748, 318 P.2d 820, 824 (1957). There may be instances where the carelessness, imprudence, or failure to make due inquiry are of such a nature that licensee will be charged with notice and knowledge that the customer is a minor. Licensee should avoid the appearance of impropriety. Where the facts, circumstances, or appearance offer the slightest indicia of suspicion, the licensee should be alerted to question the customer, and make a deliberate effort to ascertain the age of his customer before any sale is consummated. If there is any doubt, the sale of alcoholic beverages must be refused.

That, to me, just seems like a fancy legal way of saying USE SOME DAMN COMMON SENSE. 16 says if there is any bit of suspicion that the sale should be refused.... Come on, would anyone with have a brain not agree that even though a drivers license might be expired in all reality the person probably did not some how become magically younger?  If the ID looks unaltered and matches the person I would not have the "slightest indicia of suspicion" that the person might not be 21.   

It does mention a drivers license can be used to prove that age, but it never mentioned anything about it being expired or anything like that.... Is expired milk not still milk? It may not be suitable for drinking, but it's still milk. An expired drivers license is still a drivers license, it may not be suitable for driving, but the word drivers license did not magically erase from the surface, and the way the oklahoma laws are written it still appears to be a valid means of verifying age.

And one more time pointing to the part that says   

1. The individual who purchased or received the low-point beer presented what a reasonable person would have believed was a driver license or other government-issued photo identification purporting to establish that the individual was twenty-one (21) years of age or older; or
2. The person cited for the violation confirmed the validity of the driver license or other government-issued photo identification presented by the individual by performing a transaction scan by means of a transaction scan device.

Again that says what a reasonable person would believe to establish the person was 21 years of age or older... A reasonable person could argue that an expired drivers license is invalid for driving... but could ANY REASONABLE PERSON believe that the persons age magically changed because the card expired? If you say yes to that, I have some news for you.... you are not reasonable.

In summary the Spirit and intention of the Oklahoma laws, that ABLE was created to uphold, appear intent on keeping alcohol away from minors....  The law clearly says  No person shall:
1. Knowingly sell, deliver, or furnish alcoholic beverages to any person under twenty-one (21) years of age;  But I can't find anywhere that says No person shall Unknowingly sell, deliver, or furnish alcoholic beverages to any person under twenty-one (21) years of age.


 

[tulsacan]

Tell that to Smoot. It cost me $500.00 in 1990 for someone in the bar where I worked that had an expired ID.

I'm sure it is long gone and you don't remember, but I would love to know what law or statute it specifically said you broke.  And further more, maybe I would have lost, but I would have fought it tooth-and-nail.

How old was the person, based on the ABLE rules would they reasonably be considered over 21 by appearance?  If so then according to the PDF on the website you wouldn't have to ID them, if that was the case how could you possibly know he had an expired ID on him if by the rules set forth in the ABLE pdfs you never even had to ask him to see it.


Also, just because an officer writes you a ticket, doesn't mean you broke the law... I can show you plenty of cases where officers wrote tickets for stuff that was later thrown out (search youtube for police violate and you will find MANY MANY cases).  

My main issue is everyone becomes parrots, they just quote what they've been told, no one ever does their own research.  (A quick example I'm sure anyone with Facebook can relate to is the massive amounts of fake stories, and other BS scare posts that are passed around as true.) If you can find that many people on YouTube that have been given bad tickets and and them dismissed, it makes me wonder how many people just accept invalid tickets as though the cop must be right and pay them.

Laws are meant to be written down as a basis of reference as to what is legally right and wrong... if you get a ticket it should be because you violated something in those laws, otherwise we are just living in a police state where a cop gives us a ticket and if you ask why its pretty much because he says so.  We become complacent and start letting manipulations of those laws, rights, and freedoms to take place with out demanding a set of checks and balances.  

Everyone parrots the commonly accepted rule that you have to have a non expired ID to be in a bar, but if you actually check the laws and scour them I see NOTHING that indicates that to be the intended Spirit of the laws.  It's just that way because that is what they were told....  

[tulsacan]

I also think it's interesting to note that in the laws it does list circumstances where you wouldn't get in trouble for selling to a minor....

But NO WHERE can I find a single law, under any circumstances, that it is illegal to sell alcohol to someone of age. (aside from the intoxicated and mentally unfit, but thats another story.)

[Ibanez]

After scouring everything related to the issue under title 37, it appears ABLE was created to uphold the laws of the State regarding intoxicating beverages, it was not created or given the power to make laws. An issue that has been argued  and upheld in appeals, etc....  This case here http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=42469 is a good read, it refers to a package store that sold to a minor, the state agreed ABLE over stepped its boundaries, you can read the specifics to that case there.  While it doesn't directly pertain to the issue we are talking about, it shows that ABLE is not infallible.... it is actually a very good read, I couldn't stop smiling while reading it.

[patric]

While you're waiting on a jury trial, your bar is out of business because ABLE shut it down 3 months ago.

"You might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride"

[Hoss]

"You might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride"

Well, Smoot my pants!

[tulsacan]

I was talking to someone about not seeing any laws on the subject on the Oklahoma site, and he says, well what about Tulsa, cause everyone here knows it's illegal to be in a bar with out an ID...... Well, here is all I can find on Tulsa laws concerning the issue.    Per.... http://library.municode.com/HTML/14783/level3/TUCOOR_TIT27PECO_CH9INLI.html


Section 902. Possession of alcoholic beverage by a minor.permanent link to this piece of content

It shall be an offense for any person under the age of twenty-one (21) years to be in possession of any intoxicating alcoholic beverage in any public place. Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall be punished by a fine of not more than One Hundred Dollars ($100.00), excluding costs, and/or by imprisonment in the City jail for a period of not more than thirty (30) days.
Section 903. Misrepresentation of age.permanent link to this piece of content

Any person under twenty-one (21) years who shall misrepresent his age in writing or by presenting false documentation of age for the purpose of inducing any person to sell or serve him alcoholic beverage shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by a fine of not less than Two Hundred Fifty Dollars ($250.00) nor more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), excluding costs.
Section 904. Consumption or possession of nonintoxicating alcoholic beverage in a public place by a person under twenty-one years of age.permanent link to this piece of content

It shall be an offense for any person under twenty-one (21) years of age to consume or possess with the intention to consume non-intoxicating alcoholic beverage or beer containing more than one-half of one percent (½ of 1%) of alcohol measured by volume and not more than three and two-tenths percent (3.2%) of alcohol measured by weight. Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall be punished by a fine of not more than One Hundred Dollars ($100.00), excluding costs, or by appropriate community service not to exceed twenty (20) hours. Provided, the provisions of this section shall not apply when such person is under the direct supervision of his parent or guardian, but in no instance shall this exception be interpreted to allow such person to consume such beverage in any place licensed to dispense non-intoxicating alcoholic beverage as provided in 37 O.S. § 163.11.
(Ord. Nos. 16462, 20184)




Nothing about actually having an ID on you in a bar....  And really the only thing it says is that it is illegal for a minor to attempt to misrepresent his age by presenting false documentation.  No where still have I found any law that says anything about it being illegal to drink over 21 years of age or for someone trying to represent his age by presenting false documentation.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Care to share the bar name? This sounds like a classic Kenneth move.

Doolittles, was on North Sheridan, just north of Virgin. It's now part of Pryer Machine Tools property. The bar was owned by R&M Music company, the did not run it but they owned the building and equipment inside. Was a big hangout for Spartan Students, and some American and Douglas people.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

To carlton and tulsacan, you can take it for what you want. I worked at Doolittle's on north Sheridan, and I worked at Speed's Billiards next to what was then Ernie Miller Pontiac in 1989/90 and 1991 respectively. When I worked at Doolittle's, one of the bands that played there was Betsy Smittle and Friends, Garth Brooks sister, played there and indirectly led to the downfall of Doolittle's, because  people labeled it as a "gay bar" because of the band. I also worked at Speed's Billiards when Willie Mosconi had a demonstration event there in 1991.

BTW, the business of Doolittle's could be bought in 1989 for ~$10,000.00 to $15,000.00 as it changed hands a couple of times from 1988 to 1989. The issue was that you bought the name. The building and the fixtures inside the building were owned by R&M Music Company, and the rent was around $3000.00 a month on the space and fixtures (not including utilities and the cost of dealing with Jarbo for the liquor, and Coors, Golden Eagle and the Miller brands). I looked into buying it with a partner, until we spoke with People's State Bank about the venture and were advised about the arrangement for the location.

[Conan71]

To carlton and tulsacan, you can take it for what you want. I worked at Doolittle's on north Sheridan, and I worked at Speed's Billiards next to what was then Ernie Miller Pontiac in 1989/90 and 1991 respectively. When I worked at Doolittle's, one of the bands that played there was Betsy Smittle and Friends, Garth Brooks sister, played there and indirectly led to the downfall of Doolittle's, because  people labeled it as a "gay bar" because of the band. I also worked at Speed's Billiards when Willie Mosconi had a demonstration event there in 1991.

BTW, the business of Doolittle's could be bought in 1989 for ~$10,000.00 to $15,000.00 as it changed hands a couple of times from 1988 to 1989. The issue was that you bought the name. The building and the fixtures inside the building were owned by R&M Music Company, and the rent was around $3000.00 a month on the space and fixtures (not including utilities and the cost of dealing with Jarbo for the liquor, and Coors, Golden Eagle and the Miller brands). I looked into buying it with a partner, until we spoke with People's State Bank about the venture and were advised about the arrangement for the location.

Dback, I believe R & M had several places around town which were set up that way at least that's what I was told at one point.  I was also told that R & M had connections to a certain Kansas City, uh, family.  Nod...nod...winkie...winkie...

Seems like they were also behind the video bar games which weren't supposed to be gambling machines but were operated that way by some bar owners.

[heironymouspasparagus]

To carlton and tulsacan, you can take it for what you want. I worked at Doolittle's on north Sheridan, and I worked at Speed's Billiards next to what was then Ernie Miller Pontiac in 1989/90 and 1991 respectively. When I worked at Doolittle's, one of the bands that played there was Betsy Smittle and Friends, Garth Brooks sister, played there and indirectly led to the downfall of Doolittle's, because  people labeled it as a "gay bar" because of the band. I also worked at Speed's Billiards when Willie Mosconi had a demonstration event there in 1991.

Makes me wonder whatever happened to Tim's Leather and Western bar?

[sgrizzle]

I too was told R&M was a "family" business many years ago.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

For those that remember, R&M owned most every pinball, video game, cigarette machine, and juke box in Tulsa back in the 60's to the 90's. Yeah, my banker gave me the impression that I was getting into a "family" business, and that I would be lucky to do a slightly better than break even business after the cost of running the business, and the rent and fees that R&M charged.

[Red Arrow]

For those that remember, R&M owned most every pinball, video game, cigarette machine, and juke box in Tulsa back in the 60's to the 90's. Yeah, my banker gave me the impression that I was getting into a "family" business, and that I would be lucky to do a slightly better than break even business after the cost of running the business, and the rent and fees that R&M charged.

I can't speak to the "family" issue but the bars in VA Beach, VA in the 70s were mostly financed by the pinball/Pool table companies.  How much you financed was related to the cut the pinball/Pool table companies got.

[sauerkraut]

When an I.D. is expired that means it's not valid, it's just like having no I.D. It's useless, worthless. I.D is needed for everything we do from check cashing to renting an apartment- The only time no I.D. is required is when we vote. Anyone can vote I.D or not.