New Hampton Inn Hotel - One Place Downtown Development

[Rookie Okie]

Perhaps there could be a first in which the Hampton could partner with a group to establish a roof top bar that could be managed locally.  That would be awesome!

[MyDogHunts]

There is definitely a trend toward more limited service hotel properties.  The full service properties are just too costly to operate these days as people opt for more business friendly amenities and comfort and less of other (more costly) amenities and features, so that model is being followed less and less.

C, sure developers have chosen to build their outlet plazas off interstates and typically just a bit past the metros for lower taxes and other cost advantages.  I'm 99.9999% certain that's what will happen here when its all said and done.  However, since Tulsa seems to be the last metro on the planet without outlet shops and since almost a zillion other areas have their outlets 20 miles or so out, why not upset the apple cart and do something a little different for a change instead of being last to follow a dying trend.

As a matter of fact full scale outlet shopping concepts are being developed downtown in several cities from tourist destinations like New Orleans and Las Vegas to non descript places like Laredo, TX (where the proposal has already been approved and green lit).  If Bass Pro can be more successful in downtown/ Bricktown OKC and other downtowns than in Broken Arrow and other burbs, downtown America could be ready to embrace outlet shopping.  It obviously would require a hard pitch and a lot of work by the city and local economic development agencies to convince developers of the opportunity since it is different from the conventional blueprint.  

With all of the new hotels in the works, imagine some of the weekend packages, bus tours and the like that could be put together around outlet shopping combined with some other events downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods.  

I'd like some folks on the forum to talk about where outlet shops could be located in downtown.

I'm not the brightest christmas light on the string but the idea of outlet shops along our highways is brilliant.  Brillant!  You should start a new post and hopefully someone will realize this to fruitrition.  Could the Cherokees do this North of downtown on the old Land Bank/OSU property?

[rdj]

Already discussions to put an Outlet mall along I-44 in East Tulsa.

[AquaMan]

Weird. Downtown is great but there is a reason for no QuickTrips or Walmarts there.

We already had two successful Outlet type malls that failed for nature or selfish folly. Stroud was a perfect location drawing groups from both OKC and Tulsa and would have accelerated passenger railroad between the two cities. Massive tornadoes left only a concrete pad and a stunned community. Strange it was never rebuilt considering its success.

Years earlier both OKC and Broken Arrow opened Outlet Malls of America locations. The one in OKC (between Moore and Norman iirc) dwindled in usage as it was overpowered by newer and better shopping. Not sure of its current usage.

The one along the BA expressway that was quite popular is now a church (the final pre-destined use of all retail in that community). Local business people objected to an out of town firm capitalizing on their territory and kept an exit from being installed so as to limit its access. They shunned any area development north of 51 and made it difficult to participate in local events for years till someone wised them up. The New England owners of OMA were equally dense as well having judged incorrectly that all the truck registrations in the area meant it was an unsophisticated farm community better suited for a farm implements retail location. They shut it down.

[Conan71]

Weird. Downtown is great but there is a reason for no QuickTrips or Walmarts there.

We already had two successful Outlet type malls that failed for nature or selfish folly. Stroud was a perfect location drawing groups from both OKC and Tulsa and would have accelerated passenger railroad between the two cities. Massive tornadoes left only a concrete pad and a stunned community. Strange it was never rebuilt considering its success.

Years earlier both OKC and Broken Arrow opened Outlet Malls of America locations. The one in OKC (between Moore and Norman iirc) dwindled in usage as it was overpowered by newer and better shopping. Not sure of its current usage.

The one along the BA expressway that was quite popular is now a church (the final pre-destined use of all retail in that community). Local business people objected to an out of town firm capitalizing on their territory and kept an exit from being installed so as to limit its access. They shunned any area development north of 51 and made it difficult to participate in local events for years till someone wised them up. The New England owners of OMA were equally dense as well having judged incorrectly that all the truck registrations in the area meant it was an unsophisticated farm community better suited for a farm implements retail location. They shut it down.

Tanger in Stroud wasn't all that successful in it's later years, that's why Stanley Tanger took the insurance money and ran as there were few requests from tenants to rebuild there.  At one point, Tanger operated 43 outlet malls, they are down to 18 now.  I would assume online retail has hurt them more than anything. 

STROUD - Stroud's largest employer made it official Tuesday: The Tanger Factory Outlet Center destroyed by the May 3 tornado will not be rebuilt.

Store officials in Greensboro, N.C., blamed few tenant requests to reopen stores in the 200,000-square-foot center in reaching its decision.

The Tanger outlet mall in Stroud employed about 350 people. At the time of the tornado, 41 of the 53 stores were occupied.

Tanger released a one-page statement that said the company will work with the community to find alternate uses for the land.

The company received very few tenant requests to reopen stores, and therefore decided not to rebuild the center, the statement said.

"We have tremendous respect for our friends in Stroud and the state of Oklahoma for their courageous handling of this natural disaster and the support they have extended to us," said Stanley K. Tanger, chairman and chief executive officer of Tanger Factory Outlet Center Inc. "Regretfully, without substantial interest from our tenants in reopening their stores, we simply cannot rebuild the Stroud center.

"With the help of the local, city and state representatives, we feel confident an alternative use for this 50 acres, which we still own, will be pursued, and we look forward to continuing to be a part of the Stroud community."

City officials were disappointed but not surprised. A company representative called City Manager Earl Burson on Friday to let him know about the decision.

"City officials definitely want to work with them because that is a prime piece of real estate in the community," Burson said. "The infrastructure is already in place, and we definitely want to work with the Tangers on making something happen at that location."
http://newsok.com/stroud-mall-owner-makes-it-official-it-wont-rebuild/article/2662713

I believe the Outlet Mall of America BA location is the church you mentioned.

[AquaMan]

Tanger in Stroud wasn't all that successful in it's later years, that's why Stanley Tanger took the insurance money and ran as there were few requests from tenants to rebuild there.  At one point, Tanger operated 43 outlet malls, they are down to 18 now.  I would assume online retail has hurt them more than anything. 
 

I believe the Outlet Mall of America BA location is the church you mentioned.

A lot of conjecture in your post. The reputation of Oklahoma and I-35, I-44 in particular as tornado alley could just as well have been their reason for not wanting to re-sign leases in a newer Tanger operation. Higher insurance, lost profits, low returns figured in. The internet was not the power then as it is today so I doubt that had much to do with it. The truth is there were better locations back then to move stores to than a slow growing state that preferred Walmart on one end and Kansas City/Dallas on the other end. Now of course, one wonders at the logic of locating on I-44 considering the weakness of bricks/mortar for that product category.

I appreciate the respect you pay me by responding to my posts even though we mostly see the world differently. I know you have much experience in this geographic area in retail and sales. You must know that local support for retail development is much like the phrase, "all politics is local". Had the state and local communities been able or wanted to jump in during the demise of those three outlet type malls to provide relief and support the story may have been different.

However, if I were a large taxpaying mall in OKC or Tulsa at the time I would not have lobbied for tax benefits, passenger rail or bailout money for a competitor like them. We let them walk away. Stroud was hung out to dry.  Look at BA and see what development north of 51 has done to their once thriving centers to the south. Once they hit the river with development, they realized the north would be their (tax) friend and they hung those guys out to dry as neighborhood "fast stops".

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Tanger was basically done by 1996, it was half vacant at that time, and if you were going there from Tulsa it was a pain in the donkey because you had to go through the midway gate, then the Stroud gate, then back through the Stroud gate and the midway gate to head back to Tulsa.

Tanger had two locations in AZ back in the 90's, one on the north side of Phoenix near a state and a federal prisons, the one to the south was near I-10 and I-8 near Casa Grande. By 1998 both were failing miserably and were sold, the one near Casa Grande was a ghost town until '06 or '07, and the one on I-17 north of Phoenix survived under different ownership and grew because they built Anthem.

Outlet Malls of America towards BA was done by 1992. It just never had the stores, and was never filled with stores.

[Rookie Okie]

I'm not a big fan of outlet malls or any malls for that matter, both are fairly tired concepts.  In most cities, even the larger ones seem to support only one class A type mall.  The rest are very ho-hum with many struggling for survival.  Yes, as has been posted, online retailing continues to be problematic for brick and mortar retailers.   So I certainly would not like to see a mall of any type downtown.  However, what I'm suggesting is changing the concept of outlet shopping from the model that is familiar and has apparently failed here in the past.  I just believe that people are tired of the same thing they've experienced for the past 40 or so years and are ready to reclaim a life of enjoyment and leisure downtwon again, and that can and should include shopping.  Folks, if you haven't noticed people look miserable shopping at the malls.  There is just not much excitement inside these days.

Today's outlet stores if put in a nice steetsacpe open store setting along sidewalks could actually enhance the aesthetics of downtown. I know that I could acutally see myself visiting the outlets if and because they committed to and chose to locate downtown.  Otherwise, I'll continue to pass them by as quickly as I do now when traveling.

Yes, I am aware the developers were scouting out in East Tulsa for a potential site.  No surprise there.  No kidding, who cares about QT or Walmart downtown.  Although it would have been nice if QT had opted to move there HQ downtown instead of expanding at their current facility.

[AquaMan]

Tanger was basically done by 1996, it was half vacant at that time, and if you were going there from Tulsa it was a pain in the donkey because you had to go through the midway gate, then the Stroud gate, then back through the Stroud gate and the midway gate to head back to Tulsa.

Tanger had two locations in AZ back in the 90's, one on the north side of Phoenix near a state and a federal prisons, the one to the south was near I-10 and I-8 near Casa Grande. By 1998 both were failing miserably and were sold, the one near Casa Grande was a ghost town until '06 or '07, and the one on I-17 north of Phoenix survived under different ownership and grew because they built Anthem.

Outlet Malls of America towards BA was done by 1992. It just never had the stores, and was never filled with stores.

Thanks. Your proving my points. The difficulty Tanger faced was the same as OMA. No support from the state in exits on the turnpike, and no support from BA at all. Little to be gained by helping them survive at the expense of locals. They weren't increasing tax revenues, just moving them around. Nonetheless, I was in advertising sales during that time period (saw the market studies done for the BA location and just laughed. Consultants are the most overpaid people ever!). The newspaper didn't even bother sending us to call on them. They did little advertising anyway. Both malls had been quite successful but they couldn't keep up. You seem to be pointing at their failing years as evidence that they were not popular. Not true. OMA was at capacity when I called on them and Tanger had been quite popular but the wheel of retailing keeps turning and they didn't.

[AquaMan]

I'm not a big fan of outlet malls or any malls for that matter, both are fairly tired concepts.  In most cities, even the larger ones seem to support only one class A type mall.  The rest are very ho-hum with many struggling for survival.  Yes, as has been posted, online retailing continues to be problematic for brick and mortar retailers.   So I certainly would not like to see a mall of any type downtown.  However, what I'm suggesting is changing the concept of outlet shopping from the model that is familiar and has apparently failed here in the past.  I just believe that people are tired of the same thing they've experienced for the past 40 or so years and are ready to reclaim a life of enjoyment and leisure downtwon again, and that can and should include shopping.  Folks, if you haven't noticed people look miserable shopping at the malls.  There is just not much excitement inside these days.

Today's outlet stores if put in a nice steetsacpe open store setting along sidewalks could actually enhance the aesthetics of downtown. I know that I could acutally see myself visiting the outlets if and because they committed to and chose to locate downtown.  Otherwise, I'll continue to pass them by as quickly as I do now when traveling.

Yes, I am aware the developers were scouting out in East Tulsa for a potential site.  No surprise there.  No kidding, who cares about QT or Walmart downtown.  Although it would have been nice if QT had opted to move there HQ downtown instead of expanding at their current facility.

I would like to see what that new concept of outlet shopping would look like. I am not much into shopping having successfully integrated online into my life and disdainful of large chains.

The reason i enjoy downtown retailing so much is that it is still mostly local. Dwelling Spaces is so fun to shop. I can't see an outlet store being accepted or supported in that venue. Same thing for QT and Walmart. That is why I mentioned them. Believe it or not, at one time folks wanted to see those type retailers downtown.

[Conan71]

A lot of conjecture in your post. The reputation of Oklahoma and I-35, I-44 in particular as tornado alley could just as well have been their reason for not wanting to re-sign leases in a newer Tanger operation. Higher insurance, lost profits, low returns figured in. The internet was not the power then as it is today so I doubt that had much to do with it. The truth is there were better locations back then to move stores to than a slow growing state that preferred Walmart on one end and Kansas City/Dallas on the other end. Now of course, one wonders at the logic of locating on I-44 considering the weakness of bricks/mortar for that product category.

I appreciate the respect you pay me by responding to my posts even though we mostly see the world differently. I know you have much experience in this geographic area in retail and sales. You must know that local support for retail development is much like the phrase, "all politics is local". Had the state and local communities been able or wanted to jump in during the demise of those three outlet type malls to provide relief and support the story may have been different.

However, if I were a large taxpaying mall in OKC or Tulsa at the time I would not have lobbied for tax benefits, passenger rail or bailout money for a competitor like them. We let them walk away. Stroud was hung out to dry.  Look at BA and see what development north of 51 has done to their once thriving centers to the south. Once they hit the river with development, they realized the north would be their (tax) friend and they hung those guys out to dry as neighborhood "fast stops".

Agreed about the minimal influence the internet would have had on rebuilding in Stroud.  I was referring to the internet helping the Tanger portfolio dwindle from a high of 43 malls to their current 18.  Retailers will all carry business interruption insurance as well as contents insurance.  If Tanger Stroud had been a really attractive profit center for retailers, they would have returned.  The area has had a reputation for tornadoes forever.  You know as well as I do the bottom line is all that matters to large retailers.

Personally, I'm really meh on the outlet mall concept.  For one, I don't see really any price savings.  Secondly, it's mostly cheap third world manufactured crap.  Third, I enjoy shopping in chain stores as much as I relish the thought of getting a colonoscopy.

They were a great advertiser when I was at UT when they first opened and I think they were also a good one for NPC as well.

[Red Arrow]

Although it would have been nice if QT had opted to move there HQ downtown instead of expanding at their current facility.

I don't see any advantage for QT to have abandoned their present site to move downtown.  What advantage for QT do you perceive?

[Conan71]

I'm not a big fan of outlet malls or any malls for that matter, both are fairly tired concepts.  In most cities, even the larger ones seem to support only one class A type mall.  The rest are very ho-hum with many struggling for survival.  Yes, as has been posted, online retailing continues to be problematic for brick and mortar retailers.   So I certainly would not like to see a mall of any type downtown.  However, what I'm suggesting is changing the concept of outlet shopping from the model that is familiar and has apparently failed here in the past.  I just believe that people are tired of the same thing they've experienced for the past 40 or so years and are ready to reclaim a life of enjoyment and leisure downtwon again, and that can and should include shopping.  Folks, if you haven't noticed people look miserable shopping at the malls.  There is just not much excitement inside these days.

Today's outlet stores if put in a nice steetsacpe open store setting along sidewalks could actually enhance the aesthetics of downtown. I know that I could acutally see myself visiting the outlets if and because they committed to and chose to locate downtown.  Otherwise, I'll continue to pass them by as quickly as I do now when traveling.

Yes, I am aware the developers were scouting out in East Tulsa for a potential site.  No surprise there.  No kidding, who cares about QT or Walmart downtown.  Although it would have been nice if QT had opted to move there HQ downtown instead of expanding at their current facility.

I get what you are saying.  It doesn't even really have to be factory outlet stores for that matter.  Something like Sharper Image or even a scaled down upscale department store like Saks could be a draw.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

I'm not a big fan of outlet malls or any malls for that matter, both are fairly tired concepts.  In most cities, even the larger ones seem to support only one class A type mall.  The rest are very ho-hum with many struggling for survival.  Yes, as has been posted, online retailing continues to be problematic for brick and mortar retailers.   So I certainly would not like to see a mall of any type downtown.  However, what I'm suggesting is changing the concept of outlet shopping from the model that is familiar and has apparently failed here in the past.  I just believe that people are tired of the same thing they've experienced for the past 40 or so years and are ready to reclaim a life of enjoyment and leisure downtwon again, and that can and should include shopping.  Folks, if you haven't noticed people look miserable shopping at the malls.  There is just not much excitement inside these days.

Today's outlet stores if put in a nice steetsacpe open store setting along sidewalks could actually enhance the aesthetics of downtown. I know that I could acutally see myself visiting the outlets if and because they committed to and chose to locate downtown.  Otherwise, I'll continue to pass them by as quickly as I do now when traveling.

Yes, I am aware the developers were scouting out in East Tulsa for a potential site.  No surprise there.  No kidding, who cares about QT or Walmart downtown.  Although it would have been nice if QT had opted to move there HQ downtown instead of expanding at their current facility.

Not sure what you think is a major city, but in the Phoenix metro area there are roughly 20 malls of different types, and I'm not talking about intersection power centers (Nails, cellphone, payday loan) but major malls with major anchors. And I get making an outlet mall resemble a streetscape, http://www.premiumoutlets.com/outlets/outlet.asp?id=6 but this outlet mall and the one next to it take up approximately 3/4 of a square mile.

[MyDogHunts]

Greensburg, PA has a downtown that is vibrant and feels like the mall that should be.  I'm a fan of KC's old mall as well.  And Silverton, CO.  They feel old country.  Greensburg does an amazing Christmas thing with horse drawn sleighs, lots of lights.  Having spent time in Europe maybe I am just wanting that.

Downtown Tulsa as a shopping destination: part outlet mall, part artist outlet.

That could go for so many small towns.  Shawnee is my birthplace.  City is dead.  Mall along I40 sucks.  I always imagined that if the downtown was offered to artist it could be a birthplace of something great.  I imagine running some fiber optics in first so the artist can have a lively trade with the worlds and create interest with entrepreneurs.  Living quarters would be on the second floor and on the street level would be working shops, craftsmen.  And coffee shops, food, etc...  Else: downtown Shawnee and many other small town main streets are poop.