New Hampton Inn Hotel - One Place Downtown Development

[Rookie Okie]

Red Arrow, I'm sure that when QT built their current HQ that they did so with an eye towards expansion of the facility, if and when that need arose.  So  their brain trusts and bean counters made what probably looks like the best financially sound decision when they decided to expand at that locattion.

I guess it's probably a purely selfish notion on my part to want to envision the economic impact that 500 - 600 professional jobs could have on downtown.  I'm sure that many of the employees currently at QT probably like their work location.  But looking at the big picture, I'm certain that QT (like most companies) is seeking to attract that coveted younger professional talent that is eluding Tulsa for various reasons.  This talent has stated time and again that they want amenities that are in shorter supply here such as a more vibrant urban lifestyle.  Leaders in Tulsa and similar cities are well aware of this fact and should be doing more to rectify the situation.  Working downtown in Tulsa's fast developing core would be appealing to this demographic.

But to answer your question, no there are no advantages for QT to move downtown at least short term.

[Red Arrow]

Working downtown in Tulsa's fast developing core would be appealing to this demographic.

I accept that the young folks want that. I don't happen to be part of that demographic.  Maybe when I am too old to take care of this place I will change my mind. For now, I am still Mr. Suburbia.  That does not mean that I am in any way against the revival of downtown.

[Rookie Okie]

Not sure what you think is a major city, but in the Phoenix metro area there are roughly 20 malls of different types, and I'm not talking about intersection power centers (Nails, cellphone, payday loan) but major malls with major anchors. And I get making an outlet mall resemble a streetscape, http://www.premiumoutlets.com/outlets/outlet.asp?id=6 but this outlet mall and the one next to it take up approximately 3/4 of a square mile.

D-back, the one in the link has 130 stores.  Was there a 2nd one or where you referring to the entire center shown on the map?  Looks like most of the area is endless parking.  I believe the center proposed for Tulsa is 80 stores or so and probably won't contain some of the shops contained in this center such as Jimmy Cho and Burberry.

Phoenix is major city with its share of malls.  However, Phoenix is unique since it is hotter than hell and indoor shopping is virtually a must.  Even though Phoenix' growth far outpaces that of most U.S. cities.  I would still venture to say that a lot of those malls are struggling because of continuing economic and demographics shifts that are occurring regardless of overall net growth.  The mall(s) with Nordstrom (and Niemen's if one is in Phoenix) and perhaps one other upscale mall may be thriving but there are probably a bunch of dead or not so profitable malls among the rest.

To provide a better example of what I mean about the future of mall shopping, I use Tulsa so our locals can respond (but this would apply to many other cities as well; St. Louis, Cincinnati, Denver, Indy etc..). In the hey day of malls Tulsa probably had 4 suburban type malls in operation.  Today there are only 2 open, 1 class A type and 1 for basic convenience.  Woodland Hills the class A mall probably does considerably more $$ per sq ft than the Promenade with the old carpet.  Not surprising about the latter, it makes me feel as though I've entered into a time warp.  Just seems like Chess King and Merry-Go-Round or another of those 70's stores will pop up as I'm walking around.  Who knows what the future holds for that mall, but it doesn't feel promising in terms of attracting a better mix of stores or a providing a more attractive shopping experience to go along with the theaters.  Really glad Utica Sq is classy and timeless and not part of such trends.

I believe the proposed center for Tulsa would be somewhere in the 380K - 400K sq. ft range.  For reference, some of the former major downtown department stores in U.S. cities contained 500K sq ft or more.  Although that was vertical space within a block, 400K sq. ft within and around couple of small blocks might be doable in downtown Tulsa.

Just sensing that people really now want something different than what they've been fed for the last 40 - 50 years.

[Rookie Okie]

It's not so much what stores are downtown, but how they are placed downtown, aka pedestrian friendly.  The rest will take care of itself.  But over and above that basic concern one would then expect there to be some unique retail downtown, whether that be local or chain, some of which it would of course be nice to have destination type retail.  I would love to see an H&M, and a Z Gallerie as some of the chain type stores.  A movie theater would be great as well of course.  When I was in London many of the "High Streets" or shopping streets had what we would call the same ol same ol chains, but interspersed along with them were the unique local stores and more unique urban fare, chain type stores.  It was the whole mix in a pedestrian friendly setting that made the difference. Small local grocers and the bigger chains on the same street, small unique local restaurants, right across from a chain restaurant, etc. etc. The key again imho is having the "infrastructure" available.  There are many areas of downtown where retail of any sort can't happen without extreme measures.  Large chunks of parking garages with no ground floor space available.  Buildings with no ready way to get ground floor retail in because there aren't adequate entrances/access (especially those abominations built in the 80s for some reason) and or that are surrounded by other pedestrian unfriendly development.  It's so odd that we don't zone for a "High Street" like they do in the UK or for a pedestrian friendly street like they do in other cities like Denver for instance. We just leave it up to chance and cross our fingers hoping we will get a future that will not screw us over lol.  Developers don't like kind of uncertainty either.  No wonder some people in the city so want a large developer to come in.  They probably think that is the only way we can get a critical mass of something desirable downtown (only to be so often let down as the initial plans don't pan out as hoped then are left saying "well it's better than an empty parking lot").  Why are we so lame and gutless here these days when once we would have seen what the future could hold and gone above and beyond to create something truly wonderful.   

I totally get what you are saying.  It's really more about the placement of stores in a pedestrian friendly setting.  The point that I'm trying to stress is that if the outlets typically found in outlying areas were to be configured in an urban streetscape downtown, a project of this magnitude could serve to attract the critical mass that could spark the opening of more specialty, local, and other unique retail that is also envisioned and necessary for a vibrant core.  In this sense, these are complimentary concepts that would feed off one another.  I don't per se think that outlets are necessarily good or bad, but to your point, they could be a crucible to providing something viable in a pedestrian centric model.  Anything else that could provide the same in terms of attracting shoppers would be just as suitable IMO.  My only other criteria would be to integrate this concept into the existing fabric of the area combined with "compatible" new build if needed.  In other words I would not like to see this as an "urban island."

I also envision outlets downtown attracting some people who are not regulars to the area.  Once they visit and can shop not only in outlets but perhaps at some specialty stores such as Urban Outfitters, TJ's, H&M and Z-Gallerie (as you've suggested), along with some of local flavored stores and restaurants, they will continue to return.  I am also imagining attracting more bus tour, meeting and convention groups staying downtown in the growing number of hotel rooms to enjoy this experience.

Can you creatively envision nearly 400,000 sq. ft housing 80 or so outlets stores setting up within the IDL?

[dbacksfan 2.0]

D-back, the one in the link has 130 stores.  Was there a 2nd one or where you referring to the entire center shown on the map?  Looks like most of the area is endless parking.  I believe the center proposed for Tulsa is 80 stores or so and probably won't contain some of the shops contained in this center such as Jimmy Cho and Burberry.

Yes, immediately east of this one is another one of similar size.

Phoenix is major city with its share of malls.  However, Phoenix is unique since it is hotter than hell and indoor shopping is virtually a must.  Even though Phoenix' growth far outpaces that of most U.S. cities.  I would still venture to say that a lot of those malls are struggling because of continuing economic and demographics shifts that are occurring regardless of overall net growth.  The mall(s) with Nordstrom (and Niemen's if one is in Phoenix) and perhaps one other upscale mall may be thriving but there are probably a bunch of dead or not so profitable malls among the rest.

No most are still active, there have been two or three that have closed, Metro Center is hanging on by a thread, Paradise Valley mall morphed by adding a Costco on the north end of the mall as part of the mall structure. The one that are gaining popularity are out door malls like West Gate, Desert Ridge, Tempe Market Place, San Tan Village, Deer Valley(smallest of these) Kierland Commons, Scottsdale Promenade, Pima Crossing and a couple of others near Frank Lloyd Wright and Loop 101. Most of these have national medium size to big box, Macy's, Nordstrom, Dillard's, Target, Best Buy, Victoria's Secret, BB&B, as well as regional and local. The Scottsdale Fashion Square has Nordstrom, Needless Markup, Tesla Showroom, and the other upper end stores.
http://www.fashionsquare.com/

To provide a better example of what I mean about the future of mall shopping, I use Tulsa so our locals can respond (but this would apply to many other cities as well; St. Louis, Cincinnati, Denver, Indy etc..). In the hey day of malls Tulsa probably had 4 suburban type malls in operation.  Today there are only 2 open, 1 class A type and 1 for basic convenience.  Woodland Hills the class A mall probably does considerably more $$ per sq ft than the Promenade with the old carpet.  Not surprising about the latter, it makes me feel as though I've entered into a time warp.  Just seems like Chess King and Merry-Go-Round or another of those 70's stores will pop up as I'm walking around.  Who knows what the future holds for that mall, but it doesn't feel promising in terms of attracting a better mix of stores or a providing a more attractive shopping experience to go along with the theaters.  Really glad Utica Sq is classy and timeless and not part of such trends.

I believe the proposed center for Tulsa would be somewhere in the 380K - 400K sq. ft range.  For reference, some of the former major downtown department stores in U.S. cities contained 500K sq ft or more.  Although that was vertical space within a block, 400K sq. ft within and around couple of small blocks might be doable in downtown Tulsa.

Just sensing that people really now want something different than what they've been fed for the last 40 - 50 years.

Don't disagree with you on something new. The old style indoor malls are getting fewer. Out door shopping like Utica Square is the new trend.

http://www.shopdesertridge.com/
http://www.tempemarketplace.com/
http://www.shopsantanvillage.com/
http://www.kierlandcommons.com/map/
http://www.shophvtc.com/
http://westgateaz.com/visitorinfo/contact/
http://www.regencycenters.com/retail-space/az/scottsdale/pima-crossing#.UqVHAyrTmCg

[Rookie Okie]

Yes, immediately east of this one is another one of similar size.

No most are still active, there have been two or three that have closed, Metro Center is hanging on by a thread, Paradise Valley mall morphed by adding a Costco on the north end of the mall as part of the mall structure. The one that are gaining popularity are out door malls like West Gate, Desert Ridge, Tempe Market Place, San Tan Village, Deer Valley(smallest of these) Kierland Commons, Scottsdale Promenade, Pima Crossing and a couple of others near Frank Lloyd Wright and Loop 101. Most of these have national medium size to big box, Macy's, Nordstrom, Dillard's, Target, Best Buy, Victoria's Secret, BB&B, as well as regional and local. The Scottsdale Fashion Square has Nordstrom, Needless Markup, Tesla Showroom, and the other upper end stores.
http://www.fashionsquare.com/

Don't disagree with you on something new. The old style indoor malls are getting fewer. Out door shopping like Utica Square is the new trend.

http://www.shopdesertridge.com/
http://www.tempemarketplace.com/
http://www.shopsantanvillage.com/
http://www.kierlandcommons.com/map/
http://www.shophvtc.com/
http://westgateaz.com/visitorinfo/contact/
http://www.regencycenters.com/retail-space/az/scottsdale/pima-crossing#.UqVHAyrTmCg

Yes, this outdoor shopping trend has been going on now since the late 90's - lifetyle centers.  The more successful ones are the type set up like villages and have that high walkability factor.

[Red Arrow]

  Yes, this outdoor shopping trend has been going on now since the late 90's - lifetyle centers.  The more successful ones are the type set up like villages and have that high walkability factor.

I will go where the stores offer something I want to buy.  I can only think of a few places at Woodland Hills that offer anything for me.  Sears for Craftsman mechanics tools.  Penny's, Dillards and occasionally Sears for Levis. The Apple store for mom's computer.

Indoor is nice in nasty or really hot weather. 

(I may have already posted this but I couldn't find it.)

[Conan71]

I will go where the stores offer something I want to buy.  I can only think of a few places at Woodland Hills that offer anything for me.  Sears for Craftsman mechanics tools.  Penny's, Dillards and occasionally Sears for Levis. The Apple store for mom's computer.

Indoor is nice in nasty or really hot weather. 

(I may have already posted this but I couldn't find it.)

Only place by the mall that has anything useful to me is High Gravity.

[TheArtist]

I will go where the stores offer something I want to buy.  I can only think of a few places at Woodland Hills that offer anything for me.  Sears for Craftsman mechanics tools.  Penny's, Dillards and occasionally Sears for Levis. The Apple store for mom's computer.

Indoor is nice in nasty or really hot weather. 

(I may have already posted this but I couldn't find it.)

Almost like saying, I will eat what fills my stomach and has the right quantities of required fiber and nourishment.  Why concern ones self with irrelevant side issues like flavors or making eating a "social thing" with friends and stupid crap like that?  I mean all the extra work it takes alone, makes it absurd.

The month I recently spent in London showed me how interesting, engaging, and even social (not sure thats the best word) the JOURNEY to... anywhere (to shop for instance) for anything can be.  We are devoid of that age old experience here.   I think there is something human about using our two legs to walk.  Even if you don't speak to anyone, you still interact with them on the busses, the tube, the sidewalks and stairways, in a way that doesn't really exist here.  We are so isolated here and are used to it.  Don't even know we are missing something something, and perhaps try to fill an unknown void with other things.  As if we were eating bulk, flavorless food all our lives, alone. Which perfectly, logically serves it's purpose, but then you get a taste of something full of flavor around a table full of friends and family for a while, and love it. Then you go back to those who were just like you before and try to describe what it's like and they don't care and don't get it.  Sounds so unnecessary.  We are so incredibly stripped of a whole aspect of human contact here, perhaps it's no wonder that we have some of the highest suicide and homicide rates in the developed world.  We see people at work (increasingly many do not) we see people at the stores (though you can shop online) etc. but you don't interact with your society, your community, on the journey.  Well, actually you do, but its a society seen through a car window on a road. There is a saying that the best streets are the ones where if your in a car on it, you feel as though your left out of whats going on and can't wait to get out of the car and enjoy whats around you.  I can understand how people here don't "get it", because we simply don't "have it".  You can't describe that wonderful "flavor" to someone who has never tasted flavor at all.

[Rookie Okie]

I will go where the stores offer something I want to buy.  I can only think of a few places at Woodland Hills that offer anything for me.  Sears for Craftsman mechanics tools.  Penny's, Dillards and occasionally Sears for Levis. The Apple store for mom's computer.

Indoor is nice in nasty or really hot weather. 

(I may have already posted this but I couldn't find it.)

I'd get to Sears soon.  Seems like they are on life support at the mall.  Last 2 times that I was there, I don't remember seeing customers only workers milling about like zombies.  Oh, and both times were on Saturdays.  What is perplexing is that Sears has been closing a lot of stores over the last few years and this one has all the outward signs of an underperformer, so why it is still open is a mystery.  They did open one of their appliance only concepts in Owasso's Smith Farms a few months ago, but I've not seen shoppers inside that store.

But Craftsman tools should be easy to shop for online.

[Red Arrow]

Almost like saying, I will eat what fills my stomach and has the right quantities of required fiber and nourishment.  Why concern ones self with irrelevant side issues like flavors or making eating a "social thing" with friends and stupid crap like that?  I mean all the extra work it takes alone, makes it absurd.

You and I live in different worlds.  I'm sure I would not reach your level of happiness in a place you would love.

Perhaps I should expand on my earlier statement.  Some folks here wouldn't go to Woodland Hills to save their life.  The exact things they want may be there but they won't go.  I don't particularly enjoy shopping at WH but I go there because it is (relatively) convenient.  I cannot say I have never browsed at WH but for the most part my journey is to go in, get what I want and get out.  It fills a need. It is also all I want from that journey.  If there were a store downtown that had what I wanted, I would go there even in the daytime when I had to pay for parking.  I actually did that in the late 80s to get an Epson LQ1000 printer.  No one in suburbia had what I wanted and I wanted see one before I bought it.  (Roughly $1000 back then.)  I went where I needed to go to get what I wanted even though I didn't really want to go there.  That's a bit different than your opening statement above.  On a grander scale, I was in Munich Germany in 1995.  I enjoyed the Deutsches Museum, the churches, the BMW place, the Englisher Garden (I walked most of the way through it from the south end, and back via the streets.  Looking at Google Maps, I walked at least 10 miles that day.) and a few beers along the main pedestrian way. (Hofbrauhaus too full of loud tourists.)  I also wanted to get something for my hosts back near Frankfurt.  Looking at trinkets (as I classify them) was mostly frustrating.  I didn't mind spending a few Marks (no Euros yet) so that was not the problem and I eventually found something.  I just did not enjoy that part of the experience.  I am just not a "shopper".  Christmas and birthdays are difficult for me in that regard.  

You and I have different views on the value of making eating a "social thing".  With a few exceptions, it doesn't mean that much to me.  I think it might be like asking you to hang around the private hangars at Jones/Riverside Airport.  I would rather sit around the airport talking airplanes than go out to dinner, even with the same folks.

The month I recently spent in London showed me how interesting, engaging, and even social (not sure thats the best word) the JOURNEY to... anywhere (to shop for instance) for anything can be.  We are devoid of that age old experience here.   I think there is something human about using our two legs to walk.  Even if you don't speak to anyone, you still interact with them on the busses, the tube, the sidewalks and stairways, in a way that doesn't really exist here.  We are so isolated here and are used to it.  Don't even know we are missing something something, and perhaps try to fill an unknown void with other things.  As if we were eating bulk, flavorless food all our lives, alone. Which perfectly, logically serves it's purpose, but then you get a taste of something full of flavor around a table full of friends and family for a while, and love it. Then you go back to those who were just like you before and try to describe what it's like and they don't care and don't get it.  Sounds so unnecessary.  We are so incredibly stripped of a whole aspect of human contact here, perhaps it's no wonder that we have some of the highest suicide and homicide rates in the developed world.  We see people at work (increasingly many do not) we see people at the stores (though you can shop online) etc. but you don't interact with your society, your community, on the journey.  Well, actually you do, but its a society seen through a car window on a road. There is a saying that the best streets are the ones where if your in a car on it, you feel as though your left out of whats going on and can't wait to get out of the car and enjoy whats around you.  I can understand how people here don't "get it", because we simply don't "have it".  You can't describe that wonderful "flavor" to someone who has never tasted flavor at all.

I think you really don't understand why someone would not want to be in a crowd.  That's fine. We're all different.  There have been things I have done that were kind of fun but not enough that I want to keep doing them.  I went to a Philly's baseball game with my Fire Department friends in the 60s.  It was OK but I have no real desire to go see a baseball game.  I went to several theatrical events on field trips in High School.  OK, but no desire to go to any since.  My hosts in Frankfurt took me to the Opera.  OK, once is enough.  I spent a fair amount of time in a favorite bar while in the Navy at VA Beach.  I enjoyed it but if there had been something else to do I am sure I would have enjoyed that too.  Living in the barracks and drinking beer in the break room was b.o.r.i.n.g, even when filled with others doing the same thing.  I went to the Flea Market one weekend in Frankfurt (yes, Germany). It was OK but I didn't see anything I wanted to buy.  One of my hosts was with me so language was not a barrier.  I understand a little bit of German language, a bit more then.

[Red Arrow]

Only place by the mall that has anything useful to me is High Gravity.

I believe you live closer to the Sears at 21st & Yale and the other Penny's.  I don't have to get on 71st when I go to High Gravity.  I just drive up Memorial which isn't too bad north of 91st St. The first 2 miles are He11 though. 

[Conan71]

I believe you live closer to the Sears at 21st & Yale and the other Penney's.  I don't have to get on 71st when I go to High Gravity.  I just drive up Memorial which isn't too bad north of 91st St. The first 2 miles are He11 though. 

There's a Sears and Target within a mile of my house and Penny's is about 1.5 miles the other direction.  There is the occasional tool run to Sears and once in a great while Mrs. C needs something at Penney's.  I generally avoid the large chain stores, whenever possible but there's simply some things you can't buy from local merchants that they have.  Midtown pretty well has everything 71st & Hell does, just with less traffic. 

The drive out to HG is easy, Sheridan to 71st and a left turn.  I miss the rest of retail hell that way.

My wife and I have a tendency, even when we travel, to go in and out of as many local shops as we can and walk all over a downtown district when we have the time (small towns like Pagosa Springs or Taos).  We never know what we might miss as an innovative gift idea, a craft MC might be able to employ herself, and simply meeting interesting and sometimes not-so-interesting people. It's one of the things I enjoy most about traveling.

[Red Arrow]

My wife and I have a tendency, even when we travel, to go in and out of as many local shops as we can and walk all over a downtown district when we have the time (small towns like Pagosa Springs or Taos).  We never know what we might miss as an innovative gift idea, a craft MC might be able to employ herself, and simply meeting interesting and sometimes not-so-interesting people. It's one of the things I enjoy most about traveling.

The last place I went with the opportunity to do that kind of stuff was Maui HI. It was a company trip (rough duty but someone had to go.  )  There were two of us.  We went all over the island.  Several of the towns had pockets of shops and, yes, I went in and looked around.  Mostly I thought who would buy this stuff? or Nice but way too expensive.  There was a sort of fast food shop in Paia with a nice seafood/pasta platter for $15ish in 2004 that I liked for dinner. http://goo.gl/maps/QfeaP  Picnic table type seating, get your order at the counter.  We usually ate dinner in places like that.  Most of the "real" restaurants would have gone through our per diem too quickly.  I did manage to buy a made in Hawaii Hawaiian shirt in Lahaina.  There were some interesting museums there too.  The shop a Kaupo was more like a museum of old typewriters and cameras than store but I did buy a tee shirt that they said was unavailable anywhere except there. http://goo.gl/maps/pNAaY (I don't remember the road being paved there.) One of the things I did that I enjoyed most was walking about 1/2 hour into Haleakala crater.  The walk out (exact reverse trip uphill to 10,000 ft MSL) took about 1 hr.  The sign at the entrance to the path said to allow twice the time out as going in.  They were right.  Where this is all going is that I enjoyed the museums, surfing lesson, trips around the outer edges of the islands much more than any time I spent shopping.  I guess I was born without that gene.

[TheAnsonia]

From glancing through the comments regarding retail downtown, I feel like some of you may be missing one big element of retail. The female element. I don't know very many gentlemen who enjoy browsing too many shops. I hate Woodland Hills with the fury of hell, but if I need a dress for an occasion, there's a pretty good chance I'll go bouncing around from store to store at WH for a couple hours at least. I'm not sure men have that same issue (or motivation). Most shops in general are geared toward women. In many cutesy retail areas, there tend to be 90% female-oriented shops and 10% that men can stomach whilst they wait on their lady-friend to finally finish up.

I just happened to notice that you all were perhaps focusing in a little bit too much on your anecdotal male experiences with retail. 

(I didn't even know Sears had tools. But their clothes have been pretty horrific ever since I can remember.)

My opinion falls more in line with those in the thread thinking that you need a few unique anchor-type stores (H&M, Zara, Urban Outfitters, West Elm) and then pepper in much smaller shops for local stores.