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Macy's to Open Distribution Center - 1,500 jobs

Started by SXSW, December 17, 2013, 05:20:41 PM

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rdj

Quote from: cannon_fodder on January 06, 2014, 08:34:00 PM
Guido, I believe the debate is centered on the tax payers subsidizing those jobs.  If you gave me $21,000,000 I could easily create some jobs.  The debate is fair. At $10 an hour mostly part time the jobs will largely be occupied by people who qualify for government assistance ($15k a year).  If we had 10000 such jobs pop up it probably wouldn't actually help the overall standard of living in our community.

Dillard's operates 2 stores in Tulsa and via rent, pays property tax.  They are being forced to subsidies Macy's new distribution center.

Im not saying we got q good deal or we got hosed, but Since when is extorting tax payers a conservative ideal?  The tax extortion racket needs to be shut down at the federal level. It is a form of bribery and is a zero sum game for US taxpayers.

They aren't giving Macy's $21MM.  They are not charging them for $21MM in taxes they would normally have to pay.  Big difference in my opinion.
Live Generous.  Live Blessed.

nathanm

Quote from: rdj on January 07, 2014, 01:15:17 PM
They aren't giving Macy's $21MM.  They are not charging them for $21MM in taxes they would normally have to pay.  Big difference in my opinion.

What's the difference? Either way they will have $19 million(ish) at the state's expense and another couple of million from other government entities in the area.
"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln

Vision 2025

Quote from: nathanm on January 07, 2014, 01:57:35 PM
What's the difference? Either way they will have $19 million(ish) at the state's expense and another couple of million from other government entities in the area.
Or they could have selected TEXAS that way you'd never have to worry about the incentives granted or the jobs generated or the long term increased tax base for that matter... incentives are how the game has been played for many years, don't like the game, great then change the rules (I'm all for that) for everyone but in the meantime it's long overdue that we finally fielded a team with a chance and it looks to me like they scrathed a pretty good win.  All my personal opinion of course.
Vision 2025 Program Director - know the facts, www.Vision2025.info

nathanm

Quote from: Vision 2025 on January 07, 2014, 02:51:18 PM
Or they could have selected TEXAS that way you'd never have to worry about the incentives granted or the jobs generated or the long term increased tax base for that matter...

Once again, claims are being made with no supporting evidence. Show your work. What will the total cost of having this facility here, including incentive payments, and how much will it bring in? Is the net more or less than plowing $20 million into local businesses? If the wages are low enough, it will be a net drain on our economy, as most Wal-Marts are. Uncritically assuming that any and all development is good and any and all jobs are good is a large part of how the has-been cities of our nation got where they are. We're also assuming they won't pack up and move to Coffeyville as soon as the incentives expire, or even before if they're offered more elsewhere.

It's also philosophically repugnant to me that we force existing local businesses to subsidize their larger competitors, thus shipping their tax money out of state, but that's a completely separate question from whether or not these kinds of deals make financial sense.
"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln

rdj

Quote from: nathanm on January 07, 2014, 03:16:45 PM
Once again, claims are being made with no supporting evidence. Show your work. What will the total cost of having this facility here, including incentive payments, and how much will it bring in? Is the net more or less than plowing $20 million into local businesses? If the wages are low enough, it will be a net drain on our economy, as most Wal-Marts are. Uncritically assuming that any and all development is good and any and all jobs are good is a large part of how the has-been cities of our nation got where they are. We're also assuming they won't pack up and move to Coffeyville as soon as the incentives expire, or even before if they're offered more elsewhere.

It's also philosophically repugnant to me that we force existing local businesses to subsidize their larger competitors, thus shipping their tax money out of state, but that's a completely separate question from whether or not these kinds of deals make financial sense.

That is my point, they aren't "plowing" anything into the business.  You can't loan or invest money in something without the money to invest.  The public sector via the tax payer isn't putting money directly into the deal.  They are forgiving future tax revenue.  This happens with local companies regularly, though programs like the V2025 revolving housing fund, payroll tax rebates from the state, etc.
Live Generous.  Live Blessed.

TheArtist

#95
Quote from: rdj on January 07, 2014, 04:44:45 PM
That is my point, they aren't "plowing" anything into the business.  You can't loan or invest money in something without the money to invest.  The public sector via the tax payer isn't putting money directly into the deal.  They are forgiving future tax revenue.  This happens with local companies regularly, though programs like the V2025 revolving housing fund, payroll tax rebates from the state, etc.


Forgive my future tax revenue and I will hire more people too.  Except I am a local company so there will be larger benefits, and you just gave my out of state competitor an edge cause I will still be paying my "future tax revenue" and have to account for that as I invest and move forward. Not saying, don't do it, just saying, "Why not me? lol".
"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h

Rookie Okie

I think that whatever unfair tax advantage one national retailer may over a competitor in one state is likely to be offset to their advantage in the form of similar incentives in another.  It would stand to reason that Dillards has recieved some similar tax advantages over Macy's in states where they have distribution centers and Macy's has only retail outlets.  So no crocodile tears from or for Dillards. 

Some retailers (Nordstrom, Von Maur, Cotsco, and I bet Dillards and Macy's too) are receiving TIF and/ or other advantages for opening retail stores that provide far fewer jobs and community economic benefits.  Now one could more seriously argue that it's not fair for them to receive benefits over competitors that may even reside in the same mall or center.   


Conan71

Quote from: swake on January 07, 2014, 10:03:13 AM
367 jobs at $60k per year plus 1020 FTEs at $10.50 per hour ($22k per year) averages out to $15.35 per hour.

Is that what's been reported or are we all still speculating?
"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first" -Ronald Reagan

cannon_fodder

Again, I'm not arguing that we necessarily got a bad deal - but Vision 2025 makes a great point:

Fear mongering works. 

Same as every car salesmen or other high pressure BS tactic.  If you don't do it, someone else will! ZOMG!  Texas!

Someone "wins" every auction. Sometimes the "winner" over paid grossly and a rival sits smug in "defeat.". We need someone to make sure we aren't that kind of winner.
- - - - - - - - -
I crush grooves.

Gaspar

May not be happening.
The department store operator said Wednesday that it was laying off 2,500 workers and closing five stores. The company is also consolidating its regional management and restructuring its retail and merchandise planning staff.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/08/news/companies/macys-job-cuts/

Perhaps a Tulsa dist center is part of the restructure?  Hopeful.
When attacked by a mob of clowns, always go for the juggler.

Conan71

#100
Quote from: Gaspar on January 09, 2014, 09:06:48 AM
May not be happening.
The department store operator said Wednesday that it was laying off 2,500 workers and closing five stores. The company is also consolidating its regional management and restructuring its retail and merchandise planning staff.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/08/news/companies/macys-job-cuts/

Perhaps a Tulsa dist center is part of the restructure?  Hopeful.

I'd heard the story on KRMG and the reporter questioning whether or not it could affect their expansion to Tulsa apparently didn't read the entire report before saying that on air.  

Reading KRMG's link, the TDC actually fits the business model of what they are doing in trimming down their brick and mortar costs by closing under-performing units while investing more in on-line retail.

QuoteWhile Macy's will cut jobs, it is also planning to reassign or transfer some workers. It's also adding positions related to online shopping, a growing area for the company, and warehouses. That will leave its workforce level at about 175,000.

http://www.krmg.com/ap/ap/business/macys-cutting-2500-jobs-in-reorganization/ncgYF/
"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first" -Ronald Reagan

rebound

Quote from: Conan71 on January 09, 2014, 09:46:18 AM
Reading KRMG's link, the TDC actually fits the business model of what they are doing in trimming down their brick and mortar costs by closing under-performing units while investing more in on-line retail.

I did some asking around and the word I'm getting is that all these changes and cuts are well planned out and are part of a corporate-wide restructuring that aligns well with the addition of the new TDC.   I may get a chance to speak to Macy's directly early next month, and I'll post any relevant info.  Also, in terms of market forces driving Macy's (and all Retail) to an Omni-Channel distribution model,  this is a decent quick-read article from Aug 2012:

http://apparel.edgl.com/case-studies/Macy-s-Omni-channel-Strategy-on-the-Move80122
 

DTowner

Quote from: TheArtist on January 07, 2014, 05:39:48 PM
Forgive my future tax revenue and I will hire more people too.  Except I am a local company so there will be larger benefits, and you just gave my out of state competitor an edge cause I will still be paying my "future tax revenue" and have to account for that as I invest and move forward. Not saying, don't do it, just saying, "Why not me? lol".

There are programs in Oklahoma, such as the Jobs Programs, that provide financial rewards to existing companies for hiring more employees.  Additionally, there are many state programs that help with technology and research issues, etc.  The numbers may not be as eye popping or grab headlines the way landing a new company does, but they exist nonetheless.

Conan71

Quote from: TheArtist on January 07, 2014, 05:39:48 PM
Forgive my future tax revenue and I will hire more people too.  Except I am a local company so there will be larger benefits, and you just gave my out of state competitor an edge cause I will still be paying my "future tax revenue" and have to account for that as I invest and move forward. Not saying, don't do it, just saying, "Why not me? lol".

Keep in mind the people the national chain will employ will spread that money throughout the local economy and possibly through your cash register. They can do so at a much faster rate than local businesses hiring one or two people here and there.
"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first" -Ronald Reagan

Gaspar

Quote from: Conan71 on January 09, 2014, 03:17:06 PM
Keep in mind the people the national chain will employ will spread that money throughout the local economy and possibly through your cash register. They can do so at a much faster rate than local businesses hiring one or two people here and there.

I'm kinda with the Artist on this one.  If a city or state wants to incentivize businesses to come here they ought to do so by providing across the board benefits. If a tax break is going to get Macy's to come, why not extend that break to everyone and watch everyone benefit?

How many other large companies would move to Tulsa if they received the same benefits we are extending to Macy's?  Even better, how many SMALL businesses would move to Tulsa or incubate in Tulsa if they had those same incentives?

It's unfair for a community to say "I'm going to tax you less because you are so big."  It's also insulting to the very people that are working hard to support that community.

When attacked by a mob of clowns, always go for the juggler.